[TRANSCRIPT] Why You Should Quit Practicing Law

Today's presentation is about why you should quit practicing law. And if you're listening to this, the odds are probably pretty good that it's something that you've thought about. And if it hasn't been something that you've thought about, then it may be something that you should think about.
 
One thing I can say is not a good reason to quit practicing law. And I'll just say this at the outset: if you think it's difficult to get a job or you think you're not doing as well as other people and getting the highest salary jobs and so forth. In my experience, when people apply to BCG, most people are people that we could place if we have the resource to work with them, which we actually do. But the point is that you can definitely get jobs, and so that's not a good reason to quit practicing law. But there are reasons that you should quit, and there's a lot of things to think about when you're entering this.
 
I know that one of the problems that most people have when they're practicing law is that there's so much pressure. They feel like they just have to stick with the job and they really can't quit. They believe that they have to stay engaged and keep doing the work and that if they quit, there's something wrong with them.
 
There's a lot of peer pressure that comes from parents, from the sense of achievement that has gone into becoming an attorney, and a lot of other factors that motivate people to want to stick with it. But the thing I really need to tell you is that if you quit practicing law, most attorneys end up doing far better in other professions than they would practicing law. I'll just tell you, for example, I purchased a pickup truck about a week ago, and when I was there, I was talking to the salesman. He was telling me that he's 19 years old and makes $300,000 a year. He said that half of the people he works with make that much. So the point is that you can make a lot of money doing other things. You can make money selling cars, in real estate, or owning different sorts of businesses.
 

---

See Related Videos:

• How to Succeed in the Practice of Law
• Why You Can Never Stop Practicing Law for More Than a Few Weeks Once You Start
• Top 20 Reasons Why There Is No Better Profession Than Practicing Law
• The Most Common Excuses That Attorneys Give For Failing In Their Careers And Why Each Of Them Is Wrong

---

I once knew a guy that cleaned windows and only did four or five months a year in Michigan and made hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it shouldn't be about money that drives you, and you shouldn't believe that if you quit practicing law and do something else, you're not going to do well because the odds are you'll do very well with your smarts and motivation that led you to go to law school in the first place.
 
The law is a very crowded field, and I'm an example of someone who quit practicing law. I'm still in the profession, but at the same time, I quit, and a lot of people quit. One thing I'll tell you at the outset is that I see a lot more people quit and never come back to practicing law than I see people quit and go back. There are certain people who are natural fits for practicing law, and if you're one of those, then you definitely should not quit. We'll talk about that today. Many attorneys, by the time they get out of law school, are just really exhausted. There's a lot of high pressure before you go to law school.

Most people work very hard in high school, often to get into good colleges, or they work very hard in college to get into a good law school, or they just end up working very hard in law school. It's a lot of pressure, and they're often very burned out and tired. In a lot of cases, they've lost a lot of their spirit. Law school can be very crushing. There's constant rejection, no matter where you go to law school and no matter how well you do. You can be the best student in the world and not get jobs because of your personality, or you could be a bad student. There's just so much. One of the things that happens is that a lot of attorneys, especially ones who go to big law schools and do well there and get jobs at big law firms, are very excited by the time they get out.

They believe that it's their time to collect a paycheck and start working on living life on their terms. They're almost ready to not work hard anymore, even though everything is just starting. The fact is, you have to start working even harder when you get out than you did to even get in the door. But a lot of people think the opposite and they fall fairly quickly. A lot of times, even before they start jobs with large law firms, I do these presentations every week. Law students are always on them and ask questions about going in-house, even when they're at very prestigious law schools. A lot of people dream of going in-house fairly early. When you get on this kind of fast track inside of a big law firm, you're working lots of hours and very hard. You're feeling unfulfilled often because it can be very impersonal working in an office and having your work criticized.
 
You often find yourself asking, "What's the point?" You're often surrounded by negativity. It's a swamp. The more competitive the firms, the more negativity there is. Many people are interested in giving up when they start or very soon after they start at firms. It can even be that way with small law firms. A lot of people start at small to mid-sized firms and get a very bad taste in their mouths. I review resumes all day, and I see people who have spent a year or two at a law firm and still write down that they're a law clerk and haven't passed the bar yet. There are all sorts of problems. You could get a job with the wrong firm when you start, you could lose a job and get fired and blame it on the profession. Everybody gets fired in every profession. All sorts of negative things can happen. You could not go to a good law school and not get a good reception in the legal market.
 
None of this stuff, honestly, at the beginning of your career matters, and it doesn't even matter toward the end of your career because I know attorneys who are in their eighties and nineties, practicing and billing a thousand dollars plus an hour, and having a good career still. This is a long-term race. But the idea is, should you quit practicing law? All I would say at the outset is if you're in your first couple of years of this and you think you don't like it, it takes several years before you really get in the groove of things. I would say to learn to do most transactional areas of law, it takes probably about three to five years, at least. To do litigation, probably two to four years before you even know what you're doing.
 
A lot of people are focused, and most of the people I see leave the practice of law are from the largest firms. You have to remember that the world isn't made up of large firms. If you care about other people's problems, and this is what a lawyer has to care about almost naturally, this is one of the reasons it's important to practice law if you like it. You have to be interested in people's problems and solving them. The last thing you should be doing, if you have an interest in that and solving other people's issues, is quitting. If talking about their issues and coming up with solutions interests you, then you're probably very suited to this. If you think about how you can solve people's problems and take an interest in them, that's a real sign of someone who should be doing this. Many times, when people are unhappy practicing law, the reason they're unhappy is because they're just in the wrong environment. If you're in the wrong environment, then you're just not practicing in the right place. A big firm may not be for you, or a small firm may not be for you, or a firm where you don't have a lot of guidance may not be for you, or a firm where you're not around people that you like may not be for you. You have to understand that everything is about the environment and the type of people you're working with.
 
Many times that determines your happiness or lack of happiness. Saying you don't want to work and quit practicing law because you don't like working in a large firm is just like saying you don't want a friend because your best friend was mean to you, or you never want to play basketball again because you didn't make a professional team or something. It just doesn't make any sense. But this is what many people do. Many good attorneys have a bad experience and then they quit. I know that people listening to this are probably thinking about quitting because they're having bad experiences or they're unhappy where they're at. Many times you're just unhappy because this is your first employer or you're in the wrong employer. You need to do something different in a different practice setting with different types of people.

---

See Related Articles:

• Why You Should (and Should Not) Quit the Practice of Law
• 15 Reasons You Should Not Quit the Practice of Law
• Top 20 Reasons Why There Is No Better Profession Than Practicing Law
•  60 Nontraditional Jobs You Can Do with a Law Degree (and Should Strongly Consider Doing)

---

Attorneys I meet, academics all the time, which are like law professors, none of them would be good in a law firm. Very few of them. They're just not suited for it, and that's not those suited for academia. It's the same thing with practicing law. You may not be in the best setting for you. Maybe you practice law in a smaller firm or a large firm. You have to be in the right practice setting. The reason so many people, I think, get turned off by major law firms is because they're really kind of industrial organizations. They're big. Their job is to produce a lot of billable hours and to charge clients a lot of money for the best legal services. They're a relatively new breed. Liars have been around forever. You read old Greek poetry, and they talk about liars. They've always been there, but it's just a different type of profession. Most people that would want to go to law school have reasons.
 
Maybe they want to make a lot of money, but many times they have other interests in being a liar. They want a career that's fulfilling, or they want different sorts of things. When you're looking at firms and where you're working, it's not about the fact that you're in an organization that's unpleasant. It's that you're in an organization that fulfills you and makes you feel good. You have plaintiff's attorneys and defense attorneys, large firms and small firms. You have attorneys that go out and pitch business and attorneys that do different sorts of things.
 
What upsets me, I think, most of all, is that most of the time, the most highly qualified attorneys are the ones that end up leaving the practice of law. They're the ones that have the worst experiences because they get into these industrial law firms that are more cold and impersonal many times. In my experience, the people that are most likely to leave the practice of law and give up are the people that started with the largest law firms and went to the best law schools.
 
They're often the least likely to stick with it. People with lesser qualifications and that took longer to get going often do much better. People at smaller firms are more likely to be practicing many times than people longer out of law school than the people that went to better law schools or went to better firms. You may ask yourself, why is there this discrepancy? I think that the reasons are the wrong ones. I certainly could talk all day about ego and different sorts of things that hurt people, but for the most part, the only reason you should quit practicing law is if you're unfit for it. That's the main one. There are other reasons, too, but what people do is they end up in the wrong environment or they just don't continue after they've done it for a while.
 
Here's how to understand if you're unfit for the practice of law. Being a fit for the practice of law is about a lot of things, and I'm going to cover a lot today. It's not going to take a ton of time, but I'm going to cover a lot of the reasons that you may be unfit for practicing law. You need to understand that if you're unfit, you probably shouldn't be doing it. You should be doing something else. Like I said, you can do very well in other professions doing other things. It's not that difficult, and the smarts and motivation that you put into being an attorney many times are going to be much better.
 
You'll be much better suited from a financial, happiness, and all sorts of standpoints than doing something that you're unfit for. I would caution you and encourage you not to take this with a grain of salt because if you're in the wrong profession, you're doing something wrong. You're never going to do well. You'll probably always be unhappy. You'll be forced to have substance abuse problems, and you'll be angry. There are just so many things that go along with being in the wrong profession. That's not what I want for you. I want you to be doing something that makes you happy and that you're good at. If you're not fit for practicing law, you just shouldn't be doing it. Here are some ways to really decide if you should be practicing law.
 
You have to be excited by helping other people solve problems. It just has to come naturally for you. You have to be someone that listens to a problem and just gets excited about solving it and thinks about the person, and all of your energy and focus goes into that. When they're talking, you're interested in them, and that's really one of the big things. If you're not that way, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Think about a doctor that listens to your problem and is checking their phone and text messages while you're talking and couldn't care less. That's a bad doctor.
 
The same thing with attorneys. If you don't get excited about people's problems and you're an attorney because it's about your ego or something, you're probably doing the wrong thing. It's not good for the clients and not good for you. You have to be excited about what you do. If you wanted to be a professional baseball player and playing baseball is something that you're not interested in, that's not a good use of your skills. It's the same thing with practicing law. You have to get excited about solving people's problems. You really need to think about this because if you're not excited, that's bad. You should be thinking about people's problems when you're not working. You should be thinking about them. It should consume you. It should be very interesting to you. You should want to talk about it. You should want to read about it. These are the kinds of attorneys that do well.
 
The best attorneys are always interested in other people's problems. The higher you go, the better the attorney, the longer, the more partners they're a partner. The big firms that don't keep these giant books of all their work that they've done, they'll keep files about things that they're interested in. This is what the best attorneys do. If you're not that way and you just think you're doing something rote, that's probably not good. You need to be excited about this. If you don't have that, you may be in the wrong practice area. That's possible. In general, you need to be excited about other people's problems. That's the same thing you would want if you're an attorney.
 
When you're doing something, time seems to fly. You need to get in the zone. It shouldn't be something that's boring to you and that you just can't stand doing. You have to be interested in it. Whatever you're doing, whether it's research or discovery, even if the work's tedious, there's got to be something that appeals to you about doing that. If it doesn't, that's a problem. You need to think about whether you're interested in advancing people's interests. This is something I can pick up on very quickly when I talk to attorneys.
 
The best attorneys and the best people in any profession are very interested in other people's issues, for the most part, if that's part of their job. You have to do that. Another thing is, when you hear someone say, I was talking to a woman not too long ago. She was talking about going back. She said, I really don't want to do it, but I would do it if I could get paid this amount of money. I thought that's not really someone who should be doing this if they're only doing it for money. It has to feel natural to you. When I say natural, it just means that it's something that you're comfortable with. After you've been doing it for a few years, it just has to feel like something you would do for less money.
 
The best attorneys I've known are partners in big law firms who went and opened solo practices or became judges and other things because it's just natural. It's what they want to do. It's where their identity is. It's where they get fun. The best attorneys will also constantly wish they could make their results better. Certainly, many people will get into a groove and not work as hard, but for the most part, you have to be really into this and really interested in it. If you're not, then that's a problem. Think about what you would want from someone solving your problems. Would you want them not interested and detached, or would you want them very interested in it? Think about that with anybody you hire. If I hire someone to work on a car, the person that's interested is much better than the one that's not. These things, by the way, are what separate people that are good at something from those that are not, is their interest in it and that sort of thing.
 
The best attorneys will get emotionally involved in matters. It's emotional to them. They think about people. They think about getting the best result. They get upset if they lose and they cry, or they get mad if they get the worst result. They go think about it for a while somewhere and don't get the best result. They have to be interested in it. You have to be interested enough in this stuff that you, even in your free time, would like to read and write about it and speak. You have to care about it. If you don't, think about it. Would you want that person helping you?
 
There are things you care about. You may care about selling cars again, or you may be interested in something else, but if you're not, that's a problem. The attorneys that probably shouldn't be practicing law don't care about the quality of their work. They make typos. They gloss over the law. They think they know everything. They just don't care. Putting on an act is not the right word because everybody is fudging it when they start, but if you really don't care, people know. When they talk about their problems, you just have very little business being an attorney. It's not a good thing for anyone. You need to be interested. You need to be interested in improving.
 
When people talk to you about things that you're doing, you need to be interested in improving the quality of your work and take it seriously because it's a profession. You have to be interested in it. If you're not, that's important to take into account. Another thing that concerns me a little bit, and this is something I see a lot, is every generation, whether it's millennials or the people before them, they always say, "Oh, the people are different than the previous generation," but every generation of good attorneys, to be good at it, it's about protecting other people and doing everything you can to protect people, companies, and so forth, and just making sure that the other person is helped. This understanding should be natural. It should be visceral. It should be something that motivates you in all respects.
 
You shouldn't be practicing law if you're not motivated by something. If working a weekend or 18 hours a day is necessary to help your client win, then you should do it, and you should want to do it. You need to be engaged. Now, I don't think everybody wants to work 18 hours a day, seven days a week. That's an exaggeration. But an attorney whose client is facing a major problem and they can only solve it by working lots of hours should be perfectly willing to do that, and it shouldn't be a problem. You just need to keep that in mind. Another thing is that the best attorneys should have no problem. If you need to travel across the country and interview a witness or get a certain piece of evidence, you need to do it, and you need to want to do it.
 
You should do everything you can to make sure that happens and do whatever you can because this is what people are paying you for. This is what should come naturally. In your personal life, if you want to be friends with someone, or you want to know someone, or you want to say something, you'll say it or do it most of the time. It's the same thing with being an attorney. These skills are just part of it, and you have to be driven. It's not about you. One of the big mistakes the worst attorneys make is that they always think it's about them. They think it's about how much they're getting paid. It's about how they're treated, about their parking, their benefits, this and that. To some extent, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be paid competitively and all this sort of thing, but it's really about protecting other people.
 
And you have to really think about that and if you're not interested in protecting other people and companies and so forth, then and winning for them and that doesn't come natural for you, then that's a problem. And there's certain people that are wired for this, and there's others that aren't, and it's okay for not, you're just probably in the wrong profession or the wrong practice area in our practice setting.
 
So just think of, what would you care about a police officer that doesn't care about defending the helpless someone's getting robbed and they just drive by, they're not interested or a doctor that doesn't care about their patient relate and just trying to make money or a fireman that doesn't care if a building burns down or, an attorney that doesn't care if his client gets taken advantage of her client gets taken advantage of, or is prosecuted improperly.
 
These are things that you need to really think about and you need to think about them very closely. And these are important to you. This should be stuff that's natural. And one of the best attorneys that I ever knew was in a meeting with a client at one time, I bet I remember, and the client said, why should I hire you?
 
And the attorney had a very simple response and this became a person, the most famous attorneys in the country. He said, because if you hire me, why will eat, drink, sleep this case and do it. And so everyone working for me, every case I take as the most important thing in the world to me. And it's true.
 
And who would you want representatives? You would, you want some guy who looks good in a suit and talks about how he went to a great law school and did this, or did a clerkship or something and is sending to you and works on his terms, or would you want someone who devotes himself to the case and thinks that's the most important thing in the world?
 
So this is what good attorneys do. And this is a skill that separates people from average, and it's something that you should have. And if you don't, that's a problem it's a real problem. And think about it. It's just not, it's not a good use of your skills. It's not a good use of the other person's skills.
 
If all you care about is yourself then there's plenty of and that's the majority of the world. I'm not saying that in a bad thing, most people are more concerned with themselves and doing stuff for others. Then there's other professions you can do. You can do other professions and that's it's hard to save it. And so people who should be practicing law also take the work product extremely seriously. They work like every day is their most important day.
 
I once saw an attorney kick a trash can across the room and they found a typo on a document. I've seen attorneys spend two days in bed when their client loses an important case. And I've seen attorneys, do everything they possibly can with appeals and more if somebody loses a case, it's just there are people should be practicing law that have a spirit within them that makes them a fit for doing it.
 
And there's others that aren't. The best attorneys, the ones who it's very natural for often we'll never retire. They love it that much. They can always want to do it. It's not retirement, it's just not an option. And helping people is and advancing their client's interests is just who they are.
 
I'm not saying it has to be all consuming for you, but you have to be the type of attorney that you would want representing you if you had a serious problem and just think about, the things that you say or the way you think. And is that how you would want your attorney to think if you had a problem? Because I bet if you had a problem, you and he shouldn't be practicing law, you would find someone that's much more serious.
 
The spirit that makes good attorneys too, by the way really can't be measured by good sat score LSVT scores by your law school grades by the quality of the law school you went to, or even where you work. None of this stuff matters. The most important thing is always going to be the quality of your drive. There's personal injury attorneys with their own jets. And, there's attorneys that, barely graduated from law school, they're on television all the time.
 
Law schools are factories to some extent. They're very profitable by the way. If you think about, now you need to do, you can hire a lot of adjunct faculty to teach stuff. You can, fill giant lecture halls teaching your introductory classes and charge, 50,000 or 70,000 or a hundred thousand a year for, people to go there. They're very profitable, but they often they're not, they're producing standardized goods and they're not necessarily teaching you the importance of helping people and making people helping people do well.
 
Test scores and things that, when you take a test, when you take a test, it's how, you're comparing to your peers and there needs to be some way to compare yourself to your peers and how much you're learning and so forth and how while you're regurgitating things. Law firms need to obviously want to hire the best people that so they can tell their clients that they hired the best people.
 
Wines are ranked and the attorneys are ranked and all sorts of cars are ranked. The better cars are purchased by, better wines by the better restaurants and so forth. The point is that the high, the highest team clients in the we'll use the best firms that have the highest qualified and attorneys.
 
All of these ranking things, will determine how smart you are, but they won't determine how far you will go to solve problems. They will determine how much you want to win and how much spirit you have. That's really how fit you are for practicing law.
 
I see attorneys all the time, they don't care about what they're doing, and it's very obvious. They're in the wrong place, or nothing's going to happen with them. Those people are much more likely to talk about their problems and how serious they are. Be interested in their clients. If you care about the work you do then you shouldn't ever quit practicing law if you'd like to and think about other people, or you can see yourself caring more about other people and you get involved in other people's problems and you take a lot of pride in getting good results then it's probably a good idea for you to stick with it.
 
I can't tell you when to leave, but I can tell you that if you have those qualities, then you're probably the kind of person that should stick with the practice of law and very few people do leave when they have those qualities and you shouldn't really try to stick with it if you have those qualities.
 
If you don't, then, think, would you want to be represented by you and you don't care then that's an issue. One final thing I would say is just, if you're thinking about leaving the practice of law and you believe that that for whatever reason, you shouldn't be influenced by necessarily about the people around you. A lot of people are very susceptible to the opinions of their peers, by the opinions of other people, by believing that issues that they're having are related to practicing law. But you really need to think through that. I would say fairly clear. Her carefully because if you may be having issues that are unrelated to practicing law there and and you may be being influenced by others when you are maybe in the right profession to begin with.
 
You can just be in the wrong atmosphere. There's bad firms. There's bad places. There's places where the attorneys, aren't nice where the culture is bad and where people don't care about their clients. You may be picking up on that. That means you just need to be in another app in another place.
 
How can you tell when it's time to go and leave a law firm well, or the practice of law? The big thing is, I'll just tell you a quick story. The other day I received a call from someone who had started their career at a top law firm. When you're induced practice, he quit being an attorney and started some small company that also failed. Then year later the attorney was interested in relocating out of a high pressure system city and finding a job or mellow city and cause he'd run out of money and he wanted to, have weekends, he wanted to be able to leave at five or six. There's nothing wrong with these sorts of calls. We're wanting these things because people have, they have lives outside of work. They have families, they have hobbies. There's nothing saying that you have to be in a high pressure position. I'm not criticizing that at all. He said he just wanted a normal law firm job. But then I said to him, I said, you don't want to have to work weekends if one of your clients has sat in the company and the work needs to get done before, Monday. And he said, no, there's no way I would do that. And I said, you don't want to have to meet potential clients for dinner a few times a week to make sure you always have work to do. And he said, no, I would rather spend that time with my family. I'm not going to work. I'm not interested in dealing with other people's problems after normal business hours.
 
So that particular attorney is an example of someone that probably shouldn't be practicing law, at least not in a law firm because he didn't have any interest in the work or helping his clients or really being an attorney, his priorities he'd already left the practice of law. His priorities were really about him and his weekends now that doesn't mean he shouldn't, he couldn't practice law in a government office and all sorts of art, maybe in house or different types of things, but he's not really a good fit for a law firm. He should be working with other people that needs to take charge of their problems. You can very easily, many times spot attorneys that aren't practicing law because they just talk about themselves. There's nothing wrong with that. I certainly talk about myself and but the concept of being an advocate means you have to be interested in advancing other people's interests.
 
That's what an attorney is all about. It has to just come naturally to you. Certain people are, naturally drawn to different types of people on the dating scene or that, they're naturally drawn to different types of books when they read and things and you have to be naturally drawn to being interested in advancing other people's interests.
 
Whenever I talk to people and an attorney, and I hear them talk about their work, their clients and what they love about their job the more I know that they're fit for practicing law. You can tell by resumes, by resumes, we'll typically there'll be very well thought out and they'll list all these different things that they're doing and working on, and that's very attractive.
 
Those are things that make a good attorneys. It's just like that for every profession. You want to represent you that cares about you and where you're coming from and understands what's important to you. Those are all big deals. Those are important things.
 
If you care about other people's problems you shouldn't quit, that's the thing you should never quit. If that excites and motivates you, because here's what most people are not like that. Most of society isn't that concerned about other people's problems and it's just not natural and it's not the most people. It's not something you can teach you, you either have it, or you don't. Some people are natural athletes and some people are naturally good at math. I couldn't believe it when I was, when my daughter was in was five years old. There was a, another five-year old that lived in our neighborhood that was already doing algebra. This was at Kumon. Very naturally gifted at math. If you have this, then it's a natural gift and you shouldn't quit practicing law. You shouldn't. The world needs you and they need people like you.
 
You can do that, care about other people in other professions too. If you have that natural gift, then you're really a fit for practicing law. The big thing now is if you are a fit you need to find the right place. When I was in law school, I was dating a girl from a small town in Pennsylvania outside Harrisburg. I became close with their family and they arranged for me to interview with a small law firm in the town. The law office was fun. It was in a home that was several hundred years old. There was a bunch of antiques and stuff. It was an interesting little office and it was nice. I met one attorney, said he had to leave at four to go coach his daughter's soccer practice. Another attorney had just returned from like a two week trip to Costa Rica. A lot of the attorneys had golf paraphernalia and so forth in their offices. Another told me that they liked to play at lunch. They had big offices that were bedrooms. They had nice fireplaces because that's how people kept warm in the past. They talked about their country club and so forth.
 
In my final interview, it was something like five thirty. I saw these luxury cars are leaving the parking lot. The law firm actually hadn't hired anybody in years. Most of the people had been there, their entire careers. A lot of the attorneys spoke about how they were involved in the chamber of commerce and doing this and that. They were very happy. They weren't uptight. They seemed like they were doing well financially. They seemed very wealth adjusted. They were all married and seemed and they were representing local businesses and local people. They had lives outside of the office. It seemed a pretty good arrangement that these guys had. They were all men by the way. They just weren't that concerned about needing an associate to work crazy hours or spending a lot of money in offices. They were just a stable, normal law firm. This sort of law firm by the way, has existed probably for a long time. This is how law firms obvious had been in the country and when lawyers were liars and didn't work in these kind of giant firms.
 
Although I never knew it at the time, this was actually an incredible opportunity that I would have had to have been happy as an attorney practicing law. In this town, there were actually Amish people. Not too close by, but in horse child carriages. It wasn't quite in that. Next town over him, but, it was, I was being offered a gift of what an attorney could be. It's a respected profession where you were doing important things where you're working with peers and you're happy and so forth. I would never see anything like this again. It wasn't the type of law firm that I would ever imagine myself working in and certainly never would have accepted because I believed I had to work in a big firm. These attorneys, they all went to local law schools that I never heard of. They would never be able to offer me the type of salary I want. This could have been the perfect job. If I taken a job there, I have no doubt that the odds that I have continued practicing and I would be pretty good.
 
You'll probably at some point a counter if you're suited to practicing law, at some point, someone will send you a job or you'll interview for a job, or you'll get a job and turn it down. That would be the perfect job for you. I see attorneys do this all the time. It's frustrating and it's upsetting the attorneys find jobs with the government small companies and other places and then other places where they could be happy and then they take jobs and wind up unhappy. It's a lot of cases because their minds. They're believed that they need to find the largest, most prestigious firms. Even if it's not better for them.
 
I've helped countless attorneys find positions like this. It's kinda been my experience that most of the time, most attorneys will either turn the jobs down or those same attorneys will take a job at a more prestigious firm instead of, and I see this a lot, as frequently, sometimes as several times a month. Many times, attorneys will pick up and move. They may move to New York, from New York City to a smaller market with a spouse or something. That'll get them a great job in that area with nice people and so forth, the steady work and the job will pay, one-third or whatever of what they were making or half or something. This will be in an area where you could literally buy a house for, a fraction of what it would be in a big city. I'll say to them, when they don't hit the job, I said, why didn't you take the job? They'll say it's too much of a step down. I never have understood this logic because when you find a job many times in a smaller market, your expenses are different. You may be working with the people you can work with for your entire career. Just because you don't want to work with some of the most aggressive and high paying attorneys on earth doesn't mean you have to quit the practice of law. But this is what people do.
 
They often consider working anything with the largest firms to be a step down. They don't realize that if you leave a good law firm and you don't take a job, even a smaller firm that people will believe that you don't want to practice law anymore. It'll be even harder to get a job. I knew a New York attorney that I once spent years trying to get a job doing white collar litigation. I finally found him a job in New York in the suburbs of New York. They paid about a hundred thousand dollars a year. One of his friends actually got a job in doing general litigation in New York law firm that was more prestigious than his firm for 170,000. This is a while ago. It would have been even more now and he took his friend's job. I said, why did you turn down in this job? He said, how can I turn it on a firm with that name? Now, that didn't work out. He was very unhappy. He got his dream job. He decided to follow the prestige road. Now he's been, working as a document review attorney for years. He's just never he had such a bad experience. He hated billing, 2,500 hours a year and commuting and sleep. I wonder what would have happened to him if he'd gone into a small firm, and I think he probably would have been much happier and still working today.
 
Young attorneys are always faced with the added pressure of having the idea of what is important, but it's important to be practicing in a large law firm and they have that drilled into them constantly. They're really concerned about how they look to others, I think, and that's what I'm concerned about with you. If you're thinking about leaving, you may even though the ideal environment exists for you somewhere in your maybe suited to practicing law, you may actually leave for the wrong reasons.
 
A lot of people think that it's better to leave the practice of law because it'll look better than instead of practicing lesser from where their peers will think poorly of them. You'll always get a lot of support for that idea because the attorneys don't want competition. Anybody that's left wants that support. Others think that if they work anywhere that without the it's, in the law firm that it's going to have the same demands as large institutional law firms.
 
That's not necessarily the case. Almost every law firm in the country is not a large institutional law firm. The majority, if you take all the largest national law firms, it's where people work. I'd say it's a very small percentage of the number of attorneys working in the different practice settings.
 
Law firms often require massive hours from their associates, partners and others and that's just it's difficult. It's not something that is necessarily always natural it's what makes money. In law firms, large law firms have to make a lot of money because it helps them recruit associates and it's always a function of how the law firm can do. There's a lot to it. There's a lot of disconnect, I think, in the larger law firms, many times, and I love large law firms. I have nothing wrong with them, but I think that. A disconnect many times where people believe that work has been done for work sake and not because it's what the client needs. That's not necessarily the truth. The work's being done because the large law firms are thorough, but at the same time sometimes it's unnecessary work it's actually necessary. The idea is what is it needed to help the client versus what is needed to help the law firms? This can be one of the reasons to leave. If client good attorneys often believe that their client's interests are being harmed some are motivated to help others and and that it can do in a different environment.
 
Whatever the environment you work in if you're suited to practicing law, you need to be with people that are gonna make you feel supported and comfortable. In a competitive environment make you feel supported and comfortable. You need to be around people that match your way of looking at the world and what you think. Just because you're working with people you don't like, it doesn't necessarily mean you're in the wrong profession. There are a lot of firms that are just bad fits for individual people. You may be more suited being a solo practitioner with a small firm or with a larger firm. If you're in the wrong fit, it's just the environment. That's what you're facing and you need to remember that that's not a reason to leave the practice of law working in another environment could drastically, change how you feel about the profession and you should definitely not quit if you're in a position where where you're going to be happy know where you're, you enjoy helping people.
 
The years of hard work it takes for attorneys to end up in a major law firm, all it's really doing is it's giving you a ticket and it's not it, to get in, to get a job it gives you a ticket to work harder and to be part of a team. It's no different, if you work hard to get into the Olympics and think you've made it just because you're in the Olympics, you actually have to train harder the Olympics, because now you're competing with people that are even more competitive. You have to step up and work very hard. You may be 10 or 20 years or more out and thinking about practicing law, but the majority of people that leave very early, because they think that they want to be in a position where they feel like they don't have to work as hard and so forth right away. That's not always the, where they don't want the pressure and they want to take their foot off the gas. When you start working. For the first several years, that's when you have to put your foot the most time, the gas when you start the better you work harder, you work in law school the better law firm you can get into and then you'll actually have to work even harder there.
 
That may not be what you want. It's okay if you don't want to work in a big firm and don't want the pressure, you may just like the work and you can work in all sorts of places. Like I said earlier, I know several attorneys in their eighties that like tennis and play every day. They would regardless of, I'm sorry, I know people in their eighties, they play tennis every day and would regardless of how good they were at it, they just love it. It's just something that they do but other people don't. Just because you liked tennis and you play every day doesn't mean you would want to play 14 hours a day. Just think about that as a practice of law, you shouldn't have to work crazy hours and that sort of thing, if you don't like it.
 
If you like being an attorney just because you don't like doing it on an industrial scale doesn't mean you should quit or just because you're unhappy in your current firm doesn't mean you should quit. If you're motivated by helping other people. Then you should stay. Then just make sure you're doing so in an environment that works for you.
 
I'll take a quick break and then I'll come back. When I come back, I'll answer as many questions as anybody has. You can ask questions about this presentation, or you can ask questions about anything related to your career. All the questions of course are anonymous. I'm happy to answer them. This is the favorite part of my week is answering questions. No question is really off limits when it comes to your career. I know a lot of people are suffering silently and I'll do what I can to help. I'm just going to grab some coffee and then I'll be back in two minutes.
 
Let's do questions. Give me one second here. I'm just going to pull up.
 
I'm just opening a word document so I can show everyone when the questions. Alright, here we go.
 
Questions. This is a good question. I like this. Thank you for whoever answered this one. I don't know what happened to my give me one second. Sorry. I'm pointing toward document again.
 
So this first question is okay, good. Your story about the big colic, small law firm where let's see, wherever, once you have to really resonate with me. I ended up from like this over the summer to smaller market, I also came from a top Glasgow, the ultimate, except not from small firm, the small firm after striking out OCI, I received an offering, had a great experience and I can tell this is the type of farm where I could have a future.
 
However, I still Harbor the goal state in a major firm in the market. It's something I can't shake. The idea of moving up to a bigger firm is still something I want to pursue. My question is, would it be a mistake for me to pursue a larger firm that if I always, that I've already found I was a good fit and will work in a large law, a small law firm, then my options in the future. That's a good question. There's really a couple of different ways to look at that. The first thing is I'm assuming, and I don't know but I'm assuming you're a litigator, but I don't know. If it's a small law firm, it's probably going to meet litigation.
 
Cause most small law firms are litigation, but it doesn't really matter. You have to, one of the things to ask is when you're looking at law firms ask what happened to the people that come, what happened to the people that came before me. And then the other one is will I be a big fish in a small pond, a fish in a small pond or small fish in a big pond.
 
So I think there's a couple of different ways to think about this question. And the first thing I would say in terms of the people that came before me, that's a question that I really wish I would have answered before I went to work at one particular big law firm that I worked at because those can be good, good stuff or they can be bad, and then you have to get a sense of what happens to the majority of the people now. And you're at the people that came before you at the smaller level. Are now partners and they hire very few people and you feel like it's a good fit. That should tell you something that you have a future there.
 
And if bad things happen to them, like you don't, there's no questions or they laughed or you don't know then that's not good. So you have to ask that for every employer that you think about working at. Then the next thing is when you go to work in a large law firm you should also think about the answers to those questions.
 
And the problem with the large law firms are that a lot of people that go to work in large law firms bad things happen to them. Especially in some of the largest cities now, that's not, it doesn't happen in all of them, of course, but a lot of bad things happen because people get a very bad taste in their mouth.
 
You're practicing in an industrial law firm and that's not for everyone. And I don't have any criticisms of it because it actually is what companies require. And there's nothing wrong with this. And these law firms have adapted to that, but, do good things or bad things happen to the attorneys you're working with at the smaller law firm look happier, do they not?
 
And there's a lot of talk like one of the purposes of all religions is and again, I'm not gonna do a religious talk here, but religion most, yoga exercise therapy, therapy what else? All this stuff, a lot of it the, I wouldn't say exercise so much, but it does do it while you're doing it. Meditation is the elimination of the ego, so everyone's trying to eliminate their ego and the ego is a big problem. And I'm not trying to talk to you about psychology or religion or anything, but this is what all these things are doing.
 
They're all trying to eliminate ego. I know self-improvement is actually many times blowing up ego and different types of religions may try to blow up your ego. For example, I can't talk about any specific religions, but some religions are all about you. Where you think about you and study you other most, but most religions are about connecting with something that's beyond yourself and eliminating your ego because the ego, when you're focused on yourself, can hurt you.
 
So the problem with when you make career decisions based on ego is you wind up in bad places. And that's the point of the talk today. The people that made decisions based on ego ended up unhappy. And when you make decisions based on how things appear to other people, based on how they appear to yourself, that can actually harm you a lot in the long run.
 
And that's not necessarily the right thing for you now. If you work in a larger law firm, you are going to have opportunities that you won't have in a smaller law firm. Those opportunities will include things like going in house in a larger company, they'll include things like becoming a partner in a big law firm, they'll include access to larger clients and work on more sophisticated matters.
 
They will include the ability to get deeper in different things and learn different legal skills than you might learn in a smaller firm. They'll include the ability to learn from over a greater variety of people. They'll include the ability to work on matters that are in the national news.
 
So it'll include having the ability to move to other larger law firms. If you work in a smaller law firm you can still do all that. You can still move to a larger law firm and you can still develop certain types of clients, but the big thing to understand is that the largest clients and the most sophisticated clients with the most sophisticated work always use the largest firms. Most sophisticated clients, unless it's something like patent prosecution, use the largest law firms. So like for example, I'm from Detroit and I don't live in Detroit now, but I'm from there.
 
And if General Motors or one of these big companies has a huge problem they're going to hire a big law firm in New York or Los Angeles, even though the firms in Detroit, there's some just really awesome ones. But for their biggest problems, they're probably not going to hire, their bet, the company litigation, or their public, going public and things are going to hire the largest firms in the largest city.
 
Now, is that something you want to be part of? I don't know. It may not be. I personally believe that your goal should be to be happy. And if you go someplace with the largest firms, there's very few opportunities for advancement.
 
And that may not be something good for you. There's just that their partner heavy, there are all sorts of things that can hold you back. If you go to a smaller firm you'll probably learn how to develop clients.
 
You'll probably get a book of clients you'll feel independent and feel secure much sooner if you throw yourself into it. And you will also be rewarded for, probably for throwing yourself into everything with a smaller firm. So I can't tell you what to do.
 
I can tell you that if you go to a smaller firm, the odds are pretty good that you'll be practicing law several years from now and probably more happy and well adjusted. And if you don't, the odds are pretty good that if you try to go to a larger firm that you want, if you want to be in a larger law firm, I think you can get into one fairly easily.
 
You could probably do on-campus interviewing this year, and then you could also work get a clerkship federal district court clerkship or something and get a job in a big firm after that. There's all sorts of things you can do, but frankly, if you found a group of people that you really like, and you like them, and you feel like you're going to get really good training, then you're probably better off.
 
And this stuff you can't shake that you're talking to. It's really just your ego. That's your ego saying, I need to do this. I need to be the most competitive and really what you'd need to think about is, can you be happy? That's what I would say, and I can't answer that.
 
And, if you do want to be in a large firm, you just need to be ready for it, know what to expect. You need to read everything that I'm writing and study and that sort of thing.
 
I hope that helps. I know that's a long-winded answer, but it's definitely not an easy decision. Okay. I've been practicing criminal defense for 15 years and for murder cases, molestation cases, I'm feeling burned out. What areas of law have you seen criminal lawyers transitioned into?
 
There's lots of areas of law that you can transition into. I was actually looking at some criminal attorneys this morning and I can see how you would be burned out doing that. You have a couple of different options. You could certainly transition to the government.
 
So that would be one. The other one would be you could transition to litigate. There's some practice areas that are too, and different types of litigation, or you can do, you can learn different types of litigation. There's some practice areas that people pick up fairly quickly.
 
You can pick up immigration law, you can pick up different types of practice areas. You may want to transition into white-collar litigation, I don't know, but those are some things that I would recommend. The other option too, is as a criminal attorney if you've done this, you always can probably teach in law school and do things like that.
 
And then criminal defense law is its own kind of law. It's not the same type of litigation as commercial litigation. You certainly can do different types of insurance work and things. Or you may just want to work in a different type of practice setting doing criminal law.
 
What I would do is I would, you always want to look at what other people have done. And look up all the criminal attorneys you've seen and see that have left. And it's very common for people to do other things.
 
Okay. Oh, this is a fun question. I love these. So my wife is a real estate agent. How can I use my JD MBA to help a sister? Or what else can I be thinking about doing outside of the law firm? I think you could actually become a real estate agent. I think real estate agents that are attorneys do very well.
 
Most of them are much happier than they were practicing law. And they just have, they're very thorough. They think through things. You certainly could be a real estate agent yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. Real estate agents can do sufficiently well, especially in a market like this.
 
But your JD, you have a JD and MBA, so I bet that's great. Not all that shows me is you have a lot of motivation and many times applying that motivation to other things is going to you'll get better results than you would practicing law.
 
It's amazing, so many attorneys, by the way, go to get into the legal field and just don't like it, or they don't get a lot of very warm reception. One of my neighbors went to a fourth-year law school. That's no longer in business. And he started this giant company that I think he sold for a couple of hundred million dollars.
 
There's so many opportunities for people that are attorneys with your skills.

---

About Harrison Barnes

Harrison Barnes is a prominent figure in the legal placement industry, known for his expertise in attorney placements and his extensive knowledge of the legal profession.

With over 25 years of experience, he has established himself as a leading voice in the field and has helped thousands of lawyers and law students find their ideal career paths.

Barnes is a former federal law clerk and associate at Quinn Emanuel and a graduate of the University of Chicago College and the University of Virginia Law School. He was a Rhodes Scholar Finalist at the University of Chicago and a member of the University of Virginia Law Review. Early in his legal career, he enrolled in Stanford Business School but dropped out because he missed legal recruiting too much.

Barnes' approach to the legal industry is rooted in his commitment to helping lawyers achieve their full potential. He believes that the key to success in the legal profession is to be proactive, persistent, and disciplined in one's approach to work and life. He encourages lawyers to take ownership of their careers and to focus on developing their skills and expertise in a way that aligns with their passions and interests.

One of how Barnes provides support to lawyers is through his writing. On his blog, HarrisonBarnes.com, and BCGSearch.com, he regularly shares his insights and advice on a range of topics related to the legal profession. Through his writing, he aims to empower lawyers to control their careers and make informed decisions about their professional development.

One of Barnes's fundamental philosophies in his writing is the importance of networking. He believes that networking is a critical component of career success and that it is essential for lawyers to establish relationships with others in their field. He encourages lawyers to attend events, join organizations, and connect with others in the legal community to build their professional networks.

Another central theme in Barnes' writing is the importance of personal and professional development. He believes that lawyers should continuously strive to improve themselves and develop their skills to succeed in their careers. He encourages lawyers to pursue ongoing education and training actively, read widely, and seek new opportunities for growth and development.

In addition to his work in the legal industry, Barnes is also a fitness and lifestyle enthusiast. He sees fitness and wellness as integral to his personal and professional development and encourages others to adopt a similar mindset. He starts his day at 4:00 am and dedicates several daily hours to running, weightlifting, and pursuing spiritual disciplines.

Finally, Barnes is a strong advocate for community service and giving back. He volunteers for the University of Chicago, where he is the former area chair of Los Angeles for the University of Chicago Admissions Office. He also serves as the President of the Young Presidents Organization's Century City Los Angeles Chapter, where he works to support and connect young business leaders.

In conclusion, Harrison Barnes is a visionary legal industry leader committed to helping lawyers achieve their full potential. Through his work at BCG Attorney Search, writing, and community involvement, he empowers lawyers to take control of their careers, develop their skills continuously, and lead fulfilling and successful lives. His philosophy of being proactive, persistent, and disciplined, combined with his focus on personal and professional development, makes him a valuable resource for anyone looking to succeed in the legal profession.

About BCG Attorney Search

BCG Attorney Search matches attorneys and law firms with unparalleled expertise and drive, while achieving results. Known globally for its success in locating and placing attorneys in law firms of all sizes, BCG Attorney Search has placed thousands of attorneys in law firms in thousands of different law firms around the country. Unlike other legal placement firms, BCG Attorney Search brings massive resources of over 150 employees to its placement efforts locating positions and opportunities its competitors simply cannot. Every legal recruiter at BCG Attorney Search is a former successful attorney who attended a top law school, worked in top law firms and brought massive drive and commitment to their work. BCG Attorney Search legal recruiters take your legal career seriously and understand attorneys. For more information, please visit www.BCGSearch.com.