Good morning or afternoon, depending on where you guys are. It was interesting. I saw an article in the Wall Street Journal this morning about how people graduate from law school with a lot of debt, and it's difficult to make enough money to pay it off. Most people aren't paying back their loans, and something like two-thirds, or more than that, are starting to pay them back in a couple of years.
I listened to this stuff about where people are. There are two parts of me. One feels very badly for the people experiencing this, but the other part of me, because I've been hearing these kinds of statements for years, feels badly that more people aren't taking part in webinars and things like this to learn how to find a job. Honestly, from where I sit in this recruiting firm, we make more placements of people who didn't go to good law schools and aren't working in big firms than we do of the opposite. There is so much opportunity out there. Almost every attorney I work with is marketable. That doesn't mean that everyone can get the high six-figure jobs, but there are a lot of opportunities in many markets. A lot of the reason people aren't experiencing success is that they're not really listening to stuff like this and learning how to do a job search. I feel badly about that. I feel badly that people may come out with knowledge, but they don't know how to use that knowledge to get positions and improve their career prospects.
This is a good webinar for you guys to listen to. All these webinars are helpful because I feel there are so many opportunities out there that people don't see. The only way to see them is to listen to people like me. I'm certainly not the only person who understands this, but this is all I do and all I think about. I work with all types of attorneys getting jobs. Frankly, even in our company, there are tons of opportunities. I remember hiring lots of people to do recruiting-related roles, whether it's talking to new people, talking to law firms, or doing research. We have probably 30 to 40 jobs here at any given time. There are a lot of opportunities in this industry and for anyone who has gone to law school and is willing to apply themselves and learn this stuff. If you're smart enough to pass a bar exam, you're definitely smart enough to do extremely well in this profession, regardless of where you end up.
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This presentation today is about relocating to different parts of the country. This is one of the things that just blows my mind that people don't do more of. I'll tell you a quick story. When I clerked for a judge in Michigan, after my clerkship, there were five big law firms in Michigan at the time. Getting a job with one of them was next to impossible. They would hire only a few people every year, mostly from great law schools, including the University of Michigan, which is very competitive. Looking at other markets was a smart thing for me to do, even coming out of a federal clerkship and having gone to a good law school. It still made it a very difficult market. One of the most effective things anyone can do, instead of complaining about the state of the market, is to apply to jobs in other parts of the country.
You may feel very attached to working in New York City or wherever your parents live or where you grew up, but unfortunately, that is a very backward strategy that can harm your career prospects. Different people are different. I would not have enjoyed working in the very conservative Detroit market or in rural Virginia or even Washington, D.C. You have to work in markets and places that share your value systems. Often, relocating will give you a lot better options than if you stay in the market, you're in. If you're in a city like San Antonio and you're trying to work at the few tough firms there, you may not get a good reception and think there's something wrong with you. That's a very myopic view. There are thousands of law firms around the country that are just as prestigious in different markets. If you start looking at Dallas, Austin, Houston, Phoenix, Los Angeles, and other markets, you'll have a much better chance of getting a job.
Many people have deflated expectations of what they're capable of because they didn't get a good reception in a single market. To me, that is insane. One of the problems with looking for a job in your own market is that law firms will often conclude wrongly that you're looking for a job because you're doing something wrong at your current firm. Looking at other markets with fresh eyes means they're not thinking of you in terms of a cast-off from some other firm.
Every year, I see people relocating and getting jobs in new markets where they were previously struggling locally. A bad reputation in one market doesn't follow you to another. Relocating can be helpful because a bad reputation takes a long time to earn. Having a couple of bad experiences as a junior attorney won't be held against you even with one to two years of experience, but if you're in it for a long time, it can come back to haunt you. From my personal standpoint, relocating to different markets is one of the smartest things you can do.
Law firms are much more likely to hire you when you look at multiple markets. Most people only look at one market seriously. If you're in Cleveland and only looking at the Cleveland market, you're not looking at enough places. If you're a patent attorney looking for a job in Cleveland, there might be four or five jobs at most. If you expand your search beyond Cleveland and look at all the markets in Ohio and the Midwest and maybe ten other states, you're suddenly looking at hundreds of jobs. Why wouldn't you want to increase your odds by hundreds of times?
The fact that most attorneys don't look at more markets doesn't make sense to me. People complain about not making enough money or having to take a job with the government or public interest because they're not searching in enough markets. You need to be applying to enough law firms to be successful. If you're not doing this, you're holding yourself back.
Imagine if Coca-Cola only tried to sell in Austin, Texas, and never tried to sell in multiple markets, thinking it was a hard job because no one was buying. Different people appeal to different markets in different ways. You need to look at multiple markets when looking for a job. If you're not doing this, you're limiting yourself and only seeing a portion of the opportunities.
At one time, there were ten top legal markets in the United States. Some are larger than others. But if you're looking at more, you'll increase your odds of interviews and offers. When you're a young attorney trying to get a foothold, the most important thing you can do is gain experience. You don't need to worry about the prestige of your law firm as much as getting the best job and training you can. The only way to do that is to look at as many markets as possible. I was fortunate that I decided to apply to multiple markets after my clerkship instead of just Detroit or New York.
I've seen attorneys who have been looking for jobs for months or years in markets like Detroit or Orlando or Minneapolis, and then they start looking at places like Palo Alto, Chicago, or Dallas, and suddenly they're working for major law firms or small companies in Kansas City. The odds increase when you expand your job search to multiple markets. If you're not looking at other markets, you're missing out on many opportunities.
I've seen people blackballed in markets like San Francisco who then look at other markets and get multiple job offers. It's insane to limit yourself to one market when there are so many opportunities in others. Markets go through recessions, booms, and busts. When New York City is saturated with corporate attorneys, other markets like Texas might be booming. People who apply to jobs in those booming markets do well.
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You don't know what's out there until you start looking. Some practice areas, like trademark, tax, antitrust, healthcare, patent prosecution, and project finance, often have limited opportunities. I've seen instances where project finance attorneys had no jobs in the United States but found opportunities overseas. The same goes for other practice areas. You have to open your job search to different areas and be smart about it.
Patent attorneys, for example, should look at firms all over the country because the patent bar is a national certification. I've placed patent attorneys who have been retired for years because of their experience. Once, I placed a patent attorney who wanted to move to Seattle but ended up getting hired in Pittsburgh after flying there for an interview.
There are so many opportunities if you start looking at other markets. If you want to work in a big law firm but don't think you have the qualifications, you probably do if you look at branch offices in smaller markets. I've placed people in states you wouldn't typically think of, like Idaho, because those firms need attorneys and are willing to hire people who don't fit the typical criteria.
The narrower your practice area, the more likely you are to get a job in more markets. For example, education law attorneys have opportunities all over the country. Most professions look at opportunities in multiple markets, and you should too. If you're in a slow market, you can't afford not to look at more markets. You need to keep gaining experience.
Anytime someone has a gap on their resume or is underemployed, it sends a bad signal. How would you feel if your client needed a job and you, as their attorney, only looked at one market? You need to look at every possible market to get results. If people are telling you to pray and hope for an opportunity, that's ridiculous. You need to be proactive and look at every possible market.
When markets slow down, there will always be regions that aren't slow. During the fracking boom, there were so many jobs in North Dakota that anyone who wanted to could get a job there. Meanwhile, attorneys in other markets were complaining about the job market. There are always opportunities if you look in the right places.
During economic downturns, recruiters who look at other markets do well. Some attorneys and recruiters get focused on big firms in certain markets, but those who expand their search to other areas find success. There's always work somewhere. You need to find it.
If you're in a market where you see no future, you can't afford not to look at more markets. Don't get boxed in by thinking you have to stay in one place.
I have to stay in this job. I have to stay in the city. I have to stay in this house. I have to stay close to my wife's parents. I have to stay close to my husband's parents. I have to stay close to my parents. My kids can't switch schools. I can't whatever, none of that does any good. If you're depressed and you don't have a job and you cannot control what's happening in your legal market, if a factory closes, that's not your problem. That's not something that you caused. And if that factory has all the legal jobs and this is supporting the market and the hospitals and all your potential clients, then you need to move. It's as simple as that's what people do all the time, and it's just how it works. Many attorneys need to move, and you will be well-served many times by relocating. It can be limiting working in small markets. It can be limiting working in large markets. It can be limiting working in the largest markets.
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People want to move out of small markets sometimes because, granted, if you're working for smaller clients, the work is going to be limited, and the work is not going to be as sophisticated, and the income that you can make isn't going to be as large. You may not get as much respect from larger clients who may be harder to bring in. All that is true, and so you may want to leave because of those reasons and go to a larger market if you're very aggressive and want to do as well as you can. On the other hand, if you work in a major market, you may conclude it's going to be impossible for you to ever be a partner in that market and some firms. If you want to do that in a major law firm in New York City, none of this stuff is impossible, by the way. I've met people that have come to me and have been students of the stuff I've written, and have taken what I've taught them and learned from other people as well, and have risen the ranks to become partners in the biggest firms in the country. You can do that as well. It's not impossible. You can become a partner anywhere you want, but you have to learn it. If you provide more value than you're taking, the law firm is always going to make you a partner. You just have to figure out how to do that.
But the point is that if you believe from whatever, you're not willing to pay the price it takes to become a partner in most law firms, which all it is providing way more value than you're taking, then you can relocate. You can go to a major city; you can do whatever the heck you want or a smaller city. I relocate people to small markets all the time because they want a different lifestyle or they want more guarantees about advancement. Or you may feel limited by the culture in the city. I relocate a lot of people away from small Southern cities in South Carolina and things like that where it's not incestuous, but everyone that works together knows each other and knows their family and does everything together and socializes together. There are certain markets that are like that, and if you don't want to be part of that, then you can relocate. So, people can be limited by culture.
You can be in markets that could be, and I'm not trying to be rude here, but you could be in markets where you feel are very limiting. The people are too conservative, or they're not open-minded enough about people from different backgrounds or religions or orientations or races, or who knows. Or you could feel that certain markets are too liberal for you. I don't care. I'm not involved, but the point is whatever you want. You should be in a market where you're comfortable, and if the market is doing well somewhere else, you can't afford not to look at more markets. One of the things is that I grew up in a town in Detroit where everyone talked about the auto industry all the time, and the big thing with auto salesmen is an auto salesperson will always try to work in the best possible firm where the most cars are sold. They don't want to work in a firm if they don't want to sell cars that no one's buying. They want to sell cars that are easy to sell. So, they'll always move to the firms where they can make the most money and sell cars most easily. It's considered a good job to be an auto salesman in a Porsche dealership; it used to be a Honda dealership, Toyota dealership. The better the product, the more business there is, and the more people want to buy this stuff, the better off you'll be.
The point that I'm making is that you really need to work where there's opportunity and where people are buying your services and where there's demand. Why would you want to work in a market where no one wants you? Or there's not enough need for you? You're just going to feel badly about yourself. It has nothing to do with you. It doesn't matter, by the way, where you went to law school or how well you did there, or even your past experience. If you go somewhere and you put your head down and work hard and provide a lot more value than you take, you will do well. That's all there is to it, and you need to commit to it. So, it's not really brain surgery. Recently, I placed two attorneys from small firms in Indiana into major firms in the Bay Area. I placed attorneys from all around the Midwest into major firms all the time. People move from Detroit to New York City; they move from all sorts of markets to other places all the time. This can not only change an attorney's income, but it also gives the attorney more credibility when they can move to a bigger market if they want to do that and sometimes better career prospects.
If you're in a market that's slow and you don't feel like you're doing well, or you're going through the motions, then you can move to another market if you want to. If you have skills that are common in one market and in demand elsewhere, you often can't afford not to look at other markets. An example is New York City. There are a lot of corporate attorneys there. If you want to look at other markets, then there may be a lot of opportunities and a lot of demand for you, and there are other markets where there's none in New York City. There are times when certain practice areas are very active in some markets and not others. These are things to think about when you're looking for a job. Patent law has always been very popular, and there have been a lot of patent attorneys and IP litigators in the Bay Area, not as many elsewhere. Litigation has so many litigators in Washington, DC, so many very skilled and very good litigators in Washington, DC, but they're less common with those kinds of qualifications elsewhere. Regardless of your practice area, the odds are pretty good that it's going to be in demand in other markets around the world or country. You have to think about the market as a fluid type of thing where your skills are going to be in demand one place and not necessarily others.
When you get 5, 6, 7, 8 years of experience, you would be considered senior. It can be very difficult in very competitive markets when you have a lot of experience to find jobs in law firms because these law firms need to have work to support the higher billing rates. They need to value your skills, and they need to have enough work that they can make you a partner or advance you without you having business. These are challenges that you face. One of the only ways for attorneys in that position to be able to get new opportunities is by looking at new markets. I can't really overemphasize this enough. I place attorneys without business in firms all over the country. I've had so many instances, several times a month, where there's an attorney without any business or any work, and by relocating them to another market where they were unmarketable, where they couldn't find a job, where they didn't even have contacts, where there was a demand for them, I'm able to get them a job.
I told you about the attorney who was actually in Indiana, not Chicago, who I placed in Texas. An immigration attorney unmarketable in Texas was placed in Seattle. A bankruptcy attorney unmarketable in Detroit was placed in New York City. A senior tax attorney unmarketable in Los Angeles was placed in upstate New York. A senior patent attorney unmarketable in South Florida was placed in Washington, DC. Most of these attorneys wouldn't be getting jobs if they didn't relocate. If you're sitting around depressed about the fact that there's not enough work at your current employer, that there's not enough opportunities, or you can't get a job, or you're graduating from law school and you're worried about the market and whatever market you're trying to work with, you need to think about the fact that the United States is a huge area, a couple thousand miles long. There are so many opportunities out there; tens of thousands of law firms. I don't know how much clearer I can possibly be about how many opportunities there are.
If you're in a major market and you're not getting love from top law firms, and they don't like the fact that you didn't go to a top law school and do great there, and you're not working at a great firm, and you think you need to work in a big firm, then why wouldn't you look at other markets? If you're trying to work in a major market like Los Angeles or New York or Chicago or San Francisco, do you know how many people are also trying to do the same thing as you? If you're a major law firm with an opening in one of these markets, they're going to get more than enough applications, and they will choose the best. They don't care where it comes from. They don't care if it's from a recruiter. They don't care if it's someone that walks in off the street. They've got the money; they've got the work. They will take the best person they can get. If you don't think you're the best person
for most jobs, then you've got a problem. If you're in a major market, then you are probably not going to be the best person for most jobs. It doesn't matter if you have connections. If you know someone, they're going to hire the best person, wherever the person comes from. That's what they do. That's what their self-interest is. That's what you would do if you were in their situation too. There's nothing wrong with that.
But if you're applying to places that don't have openings and you're the only person, that's a very smart thing to do. If you're applying to firms in other markets that aren't getting a lot of applications, then you look like the best person. That's a very good thing. But there is so much competition. I don't need to tell you how much competition there is because you know it. If you're only looking at the jobs that are coming through whatever type of search you're doing, and you're not looking at more jobs, you're making a mistake. I don't care who you are. If you're afraid of rejection in this business, that's a real problem too because attorneys, by the way, this is what we do. We get rejected. We get rejected by top law schools when we apply. We get rejected by law firms when we apply. We get rejected by courts, most of us, half the time, some less than half the time, some more than half the time, when we're litigating. We get the bad end of contracts. We get fired. All sorts of things happen to attorneys. That's what you do. You have to be used to rejection. No one cares if you got rejected 5,000 times or 100 times. All they care about is the results that you ultimately get. So, you need to go out there and apply to more places and get rejected.
An attorney can often get a job in another market if they apply to firms in more cities. That's just the simplest thing I can tell you. You need to apply to as many cities as you possibly can. You can't sit around and be depressed about the state of the market. I see patent attorneys all the time unable to get positions. I see corporate bankruptcy and real estate people unable to get positions in major markets because the markets aren't doing well there, and then they get positions in other markets. That's just how it works. You have to be able to look at other markets when your job hunting. If you've exhausted all the firms and you're sitting and have nowhere else to apply, which is often not the truth, if you really researched the market, say you're a corporate attorney and you want to get a corporate job in your market, have you really researched the market? If you want to work in New York City, have you really found the 7,000 firms that do corporate work in New York City? Have you really applied to all those 7,000 firms? I don't know if the number is 7,000, but it's something like that. There are 7,000 places that do that work in New York City. Have you done the same with the 6,000 places in LA? Have you really done that? Or have you only applied to the 20 places that you know about that are listed and pay all this money to be in? This is insane. This is what people do, and then they get depressed and think that they've done something wrong.
What you've done wrong is you haven't been a good attorney and researched all the firms out there and used Google and every resource you can possibly think of to find who's doing the work you do so you can do it. Many people demand that they want to work in top law firms. They think that their self-esteem demands that they work in these very high-paying law firms. They want to work in the highest-paying law firms possible. Then they decide that if they don't get a job in their city, there's something wrong with them, and they can't pay back their student loans, and they go whine to the Wall Street Journal. This is crazy. I've been in this business for years, and I can tell you that if you expand your search to other markets, you're going to get much better results. If you're looking at just a few markets, you can find places where there's opportunities, and you can find places where you can get opportunities. If your search is time-sensitive and you have a family to support and you need to get a job because you're unemployed and that looks bad on your resume, then you should look at every market there is. You have to be proactive, and if you're not being proactive, there's only one thing I can say to you: you don't want a job. That's the Freudian explanation. If you're not being proactive, you probably do not want a job. There's no other explanation because the people that really want something get it.
If you have a bad reputation, you may have done something wrong. I don't care what it is. You may have been sued for sexual harassment. You may have gotten a DUI. I know one attorney who got his dream job and then went out to celebrate a couple of weeks later and got a DUI. He was on the front page of the paper. If you've gotten fired for doing something wrong, if you lied, if you made a mistake, then you need to fix yourself. But after you fix yourself, you need to figure out what you're going to do to get a job in another market. I knew one attorney who was working at a law firm in a smaller market outside of a major city and got fired as a partner because he had a rip in his jeans in the crotch and didn't know about it. Someone complained because they saw his underwear, and he lost a job he'd been at for 20 years and got blackballed. I don't know what you did or what happened, but if you did something wrong, you need to look at other markets. I'm not saying this person did something right or wrong. I don't have any judgment about it, but you have to be careful and very careful.
I recently represented a senior attorney who sued his prior firm for sexual harassment. I don't want to get into it, but everybody in the city knew about it. He believed that his past prevented him from ever getting interviews and offers. He expanded his search to other markets and ended up getting a ton of interviews and offers, and no one knew anything about those lawsuits. I know another attorney who was the managing partner of a major law firm and went into a meeting drunk. I don't know why he was drunk. It was in the morning. I think he'd been flying. He flew to another city for the meeting, had some drinks on the plane on the way there, showed up drunk, and was abusive to the client or another attorney and lost his job. He cleaned himself up, went to AA or whatever, and now he's a better person. He was very honest about what happened to him. Now he's the managing partner of another big firm after not working for a year, and I was able to get him a job. The point is, if you make mistakes, you can get jobs. If you don't have the qualifications that you think you need to get a job, you need to look at other markets. When you're relocating, you often dramatically increase your odds because the firm will presume that you're a much better attorney with fewer issues. When you're relocating, the best reasons for relocating are things like wanting to be closer to your family, you went to school somewhere, your significant other is from there, your brothers and sisters moved to this area, you have good memories of this area because you went to school there, whatever the reason. If you have reasons for relocating, let these firms know about it. They need to understand the reasons that you're interested in these areas. If they understand that, they'll think you're coming home and want to stay. They're going to want to keep you at that law firm forever. These are reasons that are very acceptable to law firms. People don't care about that so much in places like New York and the Bay Area, where they just assume that everybody should want to live in New York and everybody should want to live in the Bay Area. Why? What's the big deal about that? Work in the Bay Area.
For the most part, if you have reasons for wanting to live in a market, people will assume that you're likely to put down roots there and be a good employee and make the firm money for a long time. That's what they want. If you're from a smaller market or you have connections in a smaller to mid-sized market and the firm has a strong enough need and doesn't have a lot of local talent, the firm's going to be very likely to hire people from outside of the area. So, when I clerked for a federal judge in Bay City, Michigan, which is also near Midland, where Dow Chemical is and so forth, I can tell you that if I had decided after four or five years of practice that I wanted to go back and work in one of those firms in this area of Michigan, which is basically an hour outside Detroit, an hour and a half, pretty much all the firms there would be interested in me if I said I really had great experiences living in this area. There's not a lot of people that want to work in Bay City, Michigan, or Midland, Michigan, or Flint, Michigan, for that matter, which is not too far away. Any market that you have a connection with, you can always get jobs there. I see people going back to work in Charlottesville, where I went to law school, all the time. I love living in Charlottesville, and they get jobs after having worked in other markets around the country. If you have a connection to a market and you want to go back there, it's a real plus. Law firms like hiring people that have connections to markets, especially smaller to mid-sized ones. These should always be on your interest list when you're applying.
There was the story about the guy in Texas that I told you about earlier. He had to get rid of the
chickens and leave. It's a very funny story, and it's a true story. He's in west Texas, I thought he was making less than $85,000, and then he got $250,000. Anyway, it's a funny story, and now he's a partner in a large law firm there, and that never would've happened if he stayed in west Texas, which is like Midland. Law firms respect candidates relocating, and one of the reasons is they tend to be more sympathetic. You can often apply to firms when you're relocating and just say, "I really want to be part of this market," or "I want to work here," and they understand that they have one shot to get you. They like that. They also respect it when candidates are interested in relocating, and they believe that this is a strong enough force that makes it in their best interest to hire the person. People that want to be somewhere are much better than people that just want a job. If someone's moving somewhere and committing to that employer, and the employer is hiring them, that's a real kind of connection. The odds are that the person, if they're picking up and moving somewhere, is going to stay and try to make things work. They also believe that people are going to be motivated to settle down and work hard and be less likely to leave. There are all sorts of reasons. The person doesn't look disloyal. They just look like someone who actually is loyal and wants to be closer to friends or family and wants to be in a larger market where there's better work, or they just may want to be in a market where they're closer to family and so forth. It's not raising alarms when they're trying to do that.
When an attorney relocates, it also doesn't raise questions regarding if the person's having issues at their current firm. For example, if you're working in Chicago and you start applying to other firms in Chicago while you're working in Chicago, the firms in Chicago, even though you may have a great background, are going to be a little bit suspicious, especially if you're coming from a good firm that's been around for a hundred years and is going to be around long after you're dead, probably too.
So, they're going to wonder, they're going to try to understand why is this person leaving this firm. Are they having problems? Is something wrong with their performance that we don't know about? Other political issues? What's going on?
Most of the time when I hire people, for example, from other recruiting firms to work in our company, despite my best efforts, those people usually end up being problematic. When I hire them, they don't represent, they don't make as many placements, or whatever it is they represented. Sometimes they have hidden substance abuse problems. Other times they may have issues with attendance and all sorts of things. More likely than not, if they're applying, they have issues.
Typically, I like to hire people that haven't worked in recruiting firms or have been at a recruiting firm for 15 years, have a good track record, and are still trainable. But all these things are difficult to come up. Law firms want to hire people that are doing well in their existing firms. And if you're relocating within a market, the law firm will wonder why would this person be relocating? What are they doing? What's going on? Why are they coming to our firm when they're just across town? Are they having a hard time getting along? What's the problem there?
They ask those questions because, based on their experience, there's usually going to be some problems with someone they hire locally. But if you come from another market and you say I'm moving home because my mother and my sister and everybody lives here and I just want to be home, and I had a great experience working at this law firm in Los Angeles, but I really needed to come home to Memphis and be close to my family, firms are going to open up and they're not going to be thinking that you're having problems. That's what they're concerned about. Law firms do not want to hire someone else's problem.
When you're looking at firms locally, many times, they're worried about that, and those are valid concerns. And I'm telling you, in my experience, that it's been a valid concern that I have. It's often not always the case, but most firms are going to reach the conclusion that if you moved from another firm, you may have been able to win political games. You don't have any chance of advancement. There are things that are happening, or you have personality problems and things that are wrong. If you're moving locally, it's not always the truth, but they're going to be suspicious. They're going to look at you a lot harder than they would someone who's trying to relocate.
Most of my placements, by the way, that we make are people relocating to other markets. It's just because that level of suspicion doesn't exist. Even though I may have an opening for a certain type of attorney to work in Orange County as a litigator, the people that they're more likely to hire are people many times that are coming from other markets in California. They grew up in Orange County, not the other attorney in Orange County currently working in a competitive firm.
Like I told you at the beginning of this presentation, the most embarrassing thing that can happen to a law firm is for someone to make a snide remark at another firm about a person they've hired that didn't work out at their firm saying, "I hope they work out at your firm. They tried hard with us," and things like that. That's just what happens sometimes when you apply locally.
Now, it doesn't happen if you're doing a good job, but the second a law firm hears something like that, they're very embarrassed. They don't like it, and they're afraid of hearing that because law firms and attorneys, just like you are with your peers, are competitive with each other. They don't want to make a mistake. They feel that if they make a mistake, it's much more likely to get back to them if they do it locally.
When you're interviewing laterally in your own market, you need to say things negatively about your own firm many times. Instead of saying, "I want to move home," or "I want to move to this market," or "my spouse is from here," you need to say things like, "it's not a good cultural fit." The law firm will question, why did you take your job in the first place? What kind of culture are you expecting? When you start giving results or reasons, they may not like that. They'll think, "he's going to have, or she's going to have the same problems with us." The law firm will just assume you're not going to fit in with them either. Not a good cultural fit is basically code for "people don't like you." Often, they're not going to like you because they don't like the quality of work, or you're not nice to them, or you don't get along. You're not social enough, you're too unusual, too arrogant, too different, and so forth.
I don't know what the reasons are. It could have something to do with the quality of work. Your work's not improving. They've given you a lot of feedback, but your work's not improving, and they don't like that. So that's not a cultural fit. Another one people say when they're looking locally is, "there's not enough work." That's a reasonable explanation, but the problem is most law firms that have been around for a long time have work. If you're saying there's not enough work, you're often talking about law firms that may have revenues of hundreds of millions, in some cases over a billion dollars in revenue, and have been around over a hundred years. So, they always have work. The question is, they're not giving you the work. If there's not enough work, why aren't they giving you the work? Good attorneys who do good work are always given work.
When I had the benefit, again, of doing a clerkship before I started my job and being trained by a very detail-oriented judge, it did an exceptional job helping me learn things and the requirements. When I would turn in assignments, they were perfect. So, I started getting, or most perfect as they could be given my limited experience. Now I look back on the things, I'm sure they could have been 10 times better, but they were better than my peers that may have been prepared to do. So, people gave me a lot of work, and I had more work than I could handle when other people didn't have work. The point is, if you do good work, you're going to get a lot of work at most firms. Everyone's going to want to work with you because they're going to want you to do good work for their clients. They will give you work across practice areas. They will give you research. They will fight to keep you on if you do good work.
Once you get beyond five years of experience and you say there's no work, then you're going to be highlighting your inability to generate work on your own. All law firms go through ups and downs, but the law firms all realize that the second things get slow with them, if you're going to complain about work, you're going to get up and leave. Talking about no work is sometimes not the smartest thing to do. It's just showing that you're hopeless and you can't generate clients. When you can't, people aren't giving you work because they're not enthusiastic about it. This is your career. You need to do the best job you can with the assignments you're turning in. Other people say things like an important partner with business just left, and they're finding a job. If that was a partner with the business, first of all, why didn't he or she take you with them? Was your work not up to snuff?
When law firms are hiring laterally, especially when you're from a city, they're trying to find your weaknesses. They're going to find your weaknesses by probing your political choices, your alliances, whether or not people in the firm wanted to give you work, and more. The law firm is going to be interested in whether or not you're likely to leave at the drop of a hat as well. That's another thing that's difficult when you're looking locally because important partners are going to leave the firm all the time. They're going to leave their law firm. That's just how the business works. Partners leave, they come and go. If you tell a law firm an important partner just left, they're going to wonder what's going to happen with you as well.
Sometimes people say things like, "I would like to do more sophisticated work." That's a great reason. I actually like that one. It's one of my favorite ones. But if you say you want to do more sophisticated work, and they ask you what type of work you're doing, the type of answers you get, and I gave this reason when I was looking as a junior associate, are things like a first-year or second-year associate saying, "I want to do trials," or "I want to do more depositions and hearings." Basically, what you're saying is, "I'm a diva, and I'm difficult to manage." That's not good. You're trying to corporate churn. You want to work on larger litigations and things that aren't necessarily consumer-facing. That's probably a good thing, but a law firm doesn't need divas. If they have a small litigation matter, they're paying you a salary, they need people to work on it. If you're interviewing with the firm and you say things like that, they're not going to like that. They're going to say, "this person's out of the running."
Talking about the sophistication of the work you want is really going to separate you from the crowd in a way that makes you someone that shows you're difficult to manage. If the firm knows that unless they give you a continuous flow of great work, you're going to be interviewing with their competitors across town and complaining about them, they're not going to like that. The firms are asking themselves, "what about teamwork? What about personal relationships?" These are all things that law firms ask when you're interviewing locally. This is the problem. They don't ask these questions as much when you're looking across time, when you're looking across the state, or when you're
looking at another market. They're more concerned about asking more pleasant questions, and you don't have to ask these types of questions when you're moving markets.
Another thing that people will say is, "there's not enough opportunity." That's another huge minefield. It means basically one thing to the firms interviewing you: you're not good enough to advance. From your end, you're not making the cut. You're not rising fast enough. There may be multiple reasons: you don't have enough business, can't work hard enough, or some other reason. But the fact is, if you're good enough and you're providing more value, way more value than the law firm can possibly find in the market or anywhere else, then you're going to do well. Anybody can be a partner at any law firm. No law firm is completely closed to partners. If you're smart enough, if you're hardworking enough, if you bring in enough business, whatever it takes, you can be a partner. Anybody can be an Olympic athlete if they work hard enough and have the abilities. You can do anything if your goal is to be a billionaire. I met a guy that wanted to be a billionaire once, and I didn't think he was smart enough, and he became one. Anything you want, if you apply yourself and you want to do something, you can do it. Opportunity is a good one, and certainly, some opportunities are difficult, but if you start talking about there being no opportunity at your firm, but you think there's going to be opportunity elsewhere, that's going to come across as something that doesn't look good. You need to be on the right side of people. You need to look indispensable.
When you talk about a lack of opportunity, what you're saying is that you expect to be made a partner, paid a certain amount of money, and start advancing in a certain way, or you're going to leave. That may mean you don't have the commitment and so forth. Another thing people will say sometimes is, "I'm evaluating my options and feel it's a good time to look around." That's also a very common, kind of open statement. This means very little and is often a sign that something else is wrong. Before you start talking about evaluating your options, you have to realize that what you're saying is you may have been asked to leave, you're not doing well. You could conceivably evaluate your options so you can see what time your next firm law firms don't like that. You need to be very careful.
Another big one that people talk about is, "morale is low." This is less common, but it's something that I hear a lot. I hear that about firms that have been around 100 plus years, are the most prestigious firms in the country, or the largest firms in the country. All this means is when you say morale is low, you're just not on the right side of management. Instead, you're someone that follows groupthink within the law firm and will not support the law firm through thick and thin. If they hire you, chances are you're that sort of person that's also going to be problematic with them as well and not part of their team.
Another thing that people talk about a lot is that the commute is difficult. That's a fair thing, or now they're talking about the fact that the firm's not letting them work at home. But the point is that when you take a job, your job needs to take precedence. If you say the commute is too difficult, people are going to ask, "why did you move someplace where the commute was difficult?" or "why aren't you relocating to be closer to the office?" Shouldn't your job come first? Employers expect you to put yourself first, so when you put them first, if we talk about your commute, you're going to raise a Pandora's box of all these criticisms.
Each of these are valid reasons for relocating, by the way, but they're often not as useful in your current market and they're going to penalize you because when you're looking in one market and not others, and only looking at your existing market, law firms are looking for reasons that you could be trouble. These are all reasons that they see because in their experience, and they have every right to think this, and I'm telling you this because it's true, in most cases, when they hire an attorney from their existing market, that attorney will end up having some sort of hidden problems. They're buying someone else's problems because people will not leave unless they're having issues with their current firm. Many times, if they're moving to a much more prestigious firm, that gives the firms a good reason to hire them. But many times, they leave for the wrong reasons, and they're just a problem that happens with the next firm. Law firms are just trying to run a business. They're trying to get through life just like you are, and run good businesses, be successful, and do all the things you are. So, they have to protect themselves and you have to look at things from their point of view.
In conclusion, and then what I'll do is I'll take a quick break and answer some questions. As a legal recruiter in this placement business, one of the things that makes me very sad that I see are attorneys that remain tied to a market when there are no opportunities in that market or there are very few opportunities in that market, or they're going to go on interviews and not get every job they interview for because they give the wrong answers to questions and they just don't look like a good person to the firms. So, you really do need to broaden your horizons by applying to more firms. Again, I don't care where you went to law school, I don't care what your background is.
In closing, I'll tell you one quick story that is funny. I used to run this business, and I don't know why I'm not running it anymore because it was such a helpful business. It was called Legal Authority, and the website's still up, but we're not really offering the service anymore because of a bunch of reasons. But the point is that what this business would do is people would contact it, and we would send out letters and redo the person's resume, and then send out letters to all the firms in a given city that someone wanted to work at. All these law schools around the country, people started using it to find jobs. They would use it. I'm not offering the service now, so I'm not trying to sell it, but basically what the firm would do is if you said, "I want to be an entertainment attorney in LA," the service would research and send you letters and mail out to the 500 law firms in Los Angeles that do entertainment law. It would send to the best firms, the smallest firms, the biggest firms, or whatever kind of search you wanted to do. People would do this, and they would get jobs, and it was crazy.
About Harrison Barnes
Harrison Barnes is a prominent figure in the legal placement industry, known for his expertise in attorney placements and his extensive knowledge of the legal profession.
With over 25 years of experience, he has established himself as a leading voice in the field and has helped thousands of lawyers and law students find their ideal career paths.
Barnes is a former federal law clerk and associate at Quinn Emanuel and a graduate of the University of Chicago College and the University of Virginia Law School. He was a Rhodes Scholar Finalist at the University of Chicago and a member of the University of Virginia Law Review. Early in his legal career, he enrolled in Stanford Business School but dropped out because he missed legal recruiting too much.
Barnes' approach to the legal industry is rooted in his commitment to helping lawyers achieve their full potential. He believes that the key to success in the legal profession is to be proactive, persistent, and disciplined in one's approach to work and life. He encourages lawyers to take ownership of their careers and to focus on developing their skills and expertise in a way that aligns with their passions and interests.
One of how Barnes provides support to lawyers is through his writing. On his blog, HarrisonBarnes.com, and BCGSearch.com, he regularly shares his insights and advice on a range of topics related to the legal profession. Through his writing, he aims to empower lawyers to control their careers and make informed decisions about their professional development.
One of Barnes's fundamental philosophies in his writing is the importance of networking. He believes that networking is a critical component of career success and that it is essential for lawyers to establish relationships with others in their field. He encourages lawyers to attend events, join organizations, and connect with others in the legal community to build their professional networks.
Another central theme in Barnes' writing is the importance of personal and professional development. He believes that lawyers should continuously strive to improve themselves and develop their skills to succeed in their careers. He encourages lawyers to pursue ongoing education and training actively, read widely, and seek new opportunities for growth and development.
In addition to his work in the legal industry, Barnes is also a fitness and lifestyle enthusiast. He sees fitness and wellness as integral to his personal and professional development and encourages others to adopt a similar mindset. He starts his day at 4:00 am and dedicates several daily hours to running, weightlifting, and pursuing spiritual disciplines.
Finally, Barnes is a strong advocate for community service and giving back. He volunteers for the University of Chicago, where he is the former area chair of Los Angeles for the University of Chicago Admissions Office. He also serves as the President of the Young Presidents Organization's Century City Los Angeles Chapter, where he works to support and connect young business leaders.
In conclusion, Harrison Barnes is a visionary legal industry leader committed to helping lawyers achieve their full potential. Through his work at BCG Attorney Search, writing, and community involvement, he empowers lawyers to take control of their careers, develop their skills continuously, and lead fulfilling and successful lives. His philosophy of being proactive, persistent, and disciplined, combined with his focus on personal and professional development, makes him a valuable resource for anyone looking to succeed in the legal profession.
About BCG Attorney Search
BCG Attorney Search matches attorneys and law firms with unparalleled expertise and drive, while achieving results. Known globally for its success in locating and placing attorneys in law firms of all sizes, BCG Attorney Search has placed thousands of attorneys in law firms in thousands of different law firms around the country. Unlike other legal placement firms, BCG Attorney Search brings massive resources of over 150 employees to its placement efforts locating positions and opportunities its competitors simply cannot. Every legal recruiter at BCG Attorney Search is a former successful attorney who attended a top law school, worked in top law firms and brought massive drive and commitment to their work. BCG Attorney Search legal recruiters take your legal career seriously and understand attorneys. For more information, please visit www.BCGSearch.com.
Harrison Barnes does a weekly free webinar with live Q&A for attorneys and law students each Wednesday at 10:00 am PST. You can attend anonymously and ask questions about your career, this article, or any other legal career-related topics. You can sign up for the weekly webinar here: Register on Zoom
Harrison also does a weekly free webinar with live Q&A for law firms, companies, and others who hire attorneys each Wednesday at 10:00 am PST. You can sign up for the weekly webinar here: Register on Zoom
You can browse a list of past webinars here: Webinar Replays
You can also listen to Harrison Barnes Podcasts here: Attorney Career Advice Podcasts
You can also read Harrison Barnes' articles and books here: Harrison's Perspectives
Harrison Barnes is the legal profession's mentor and may be the only person in your legal career who will tell you why you are not reaching your full potential and what you really need to do to grow as an attorney--regardless of how much it hurts. If you prefer truth to stagnation, growth to comfort, and actionable ideas instead of fluffy concepts, you and Harrison will get along just fine. If, however, you want to stay where you are, talk about your past successes, and feel comfortable, Harrison is not for you.
Truly great mentors are like parents, doctors, therapists, spiritual figures, and others because in order to help you they need to expose you to pain and expose your weaknesses. But suppose you act on the advice and pain created by a mentor. In that case, you will become better: a better attorney, better employees, a better boss, know where you are going, and appreciate where you have been--you will hopefully also become a happier and better person. As you learn from Harrison, he hopes he will become your mentor.
To read more career and life advice articles visit Harrison's personal blog.
