Why You Must Network to Find Legal Positions as an Attorney

Transcript

[00:00:00] hello, this presentation is going to talk about, today, networking and how to network to, find legal positions as an attorney or a law student. So the first thing you need to understand is that, there's a lot of statistics out there, but the statistics say that, somewhere in the neighborhood of.

[00:00:21]65 to, even more than 70% of people end up getting positions through network. So what that means is, people are not getting networking through, job sites. they're not getting, positions through, recruiters. the majority of positions people are getting out there are really coming through networking.

[00:00:40] And that's one reason that. it's absolutely, the most important thing that you can do, to get a position positions, to understand, how to networking, and you're actually much better off, getting positions, networking then applying to positions on your own.

[00:00:55] There's really no better way to find a [00:01:00] position than for network.  there's two different, aspects to networking that I'm going to cover today. there's defined positions, which is when a position exists. And, that means a position may be advertised or, you may know about the position through, some other method, but it's, it's a defined position.

[00:01:19]an example of defined positions would be, law firms have, summer associate jobs every year, or they have, or, there's clerkships every year, which would be a defined position. those other types of defined positions, which could be, an example of these schools have defined positions where they're going to admit a certain number of people each year.

[00:01:37] And if you're not using networking to. I find a position you're making a huge mistake. I, for the most part, most, every school that I've ever gotten into, I've done it through networking and, and the majority of jobs that I've gotten as well. I've gotten through networking.

[00:01:55]So the first store I want to tell you, it's an interesting story that I heard about Stanford [00:02:00] university when I was, in. high school. And, I heard the story that, there was an admissions officer at Stanford that was given a hundred, file folders and back then have file folders.

[00:02:12] And, and then people would, choose from the, the files or the folders. And he could only admit 20 people and. he was sitting up in a, in a study and, in an upper level, this house and he spent a few hours trying to distinguish between everyone and everyone.

[00:02:28] Then he was trying to choose from head grade test scores. one person might have a little bit of test scores, but more extracurricular activities. And there were just, no, it was very difficult for him to choose, 20. So what he did is he just took the. 100 folders after realizing they were all very similar and he tossed them in the air and the 20 that landed, closest to the bottom of the stairs.

[00:02:51]he, the last spare, the bottom he chose. And that was how he admitted them. And, for the longest time, I really thought that was an urban myth and it [00:03:00] was something that. wasn't true. And it was just something that, had been made up. But 15 years later, I was, in Northern California attending a webinar, not a webinar, but a seminar that had absolutely nothing to do with, college admissions or anything like that.

[00:03:16] I think it was about user experience on websites and there was an admissions officer from Stanford and. He literally, told the same story about someone in his office and there was impossible to choose. the people and that's okay. And that someone in his office had done that years ago.

[00:03:31] And I thought that was, very interesting. And the reason I'm telling you that story today is, most people when they're applying to jobs, Or, or they may be qualified for jobs are among those hundred applicants or, th they're taking, they're, you're going to get there, the position based on champions.

[00:03:49] It's not always going to be the, your skills and things that are going to win out the day. Because most law firms and other employers have a lot of people to choose from when they're looking for people. And in the case of [00:04:00] Stanford, if, that school, if someone there had known someone in the school and, or there had been some sort of connection, whether it was with an athletic coach or.

[00:04:10]professor at Stanford or something, the odds are, that if someone was good enough to make it in those hundred applicants, they probably would never have gotten into that pool. And they would have been admitted without that. And that's how it is with jobs. there's, there was a talk at, a lot of universities will admit people, that are legacies and have that connection and networking is just, extremely important in terms of what you can accomplish, that you won't, without.

[00:04:36]networking. So like I said, earlier, position, excuse me, there's one that exists and it's going to be filled, regardless of whether you network and decisions that are advertised, they may be on an employer's website and fill an annual basis. And if you use networking to get defined positions, you're almost always going to be a much better off [00:05:00] and in every area of your life, if you know someone.

[00:05:04]who has some impact and whether or not to let you in the organization, and that person likes you. You're going to just get much, much farther than you would without ever knowing anyone. And the thing is,  many clubs, employers, and others are actually closed off unless, someone, they can literally be.

[00:05:23]they ignore not people from the outside and what, let them in, colleges, law schools, if you want to get them based on your numbers, and you may be able to, but if you know someone, everything is really going to change and, and things can happen to you that would not happen otherwise.

[00:05:42] And one way I'd like to think about networking is. you can effectively network yourself into better schools and you should be getting into normal. Really. You can, network yourself into better jobs or you can just get jobs and other people aren't getting jobs if he know how to network. So I'm going to tell you another, I'm gonna tell you several personal stores [00:06:00] today, because I think a lot of learning, in terms of, the subject matter, you can learn through, networking and, as I was working on this presentation, I really started to realize that.

[00:06:11]whether it is, clubs I belong to, or, the people that, have helped me the most in a business or, in my professional life and even my personal life com through the ability to network effectively. And, and every time, I've networked, I've been able to achieve something that I normally wouldn't have been able to meet.

[00:06:31]very famous people, I've been able to get into good schools. I've been able to get into really good jobs and it all comes through networking. So when I was just starting in business, I had an office in downtown Los Angeles and, there were three clubs that everybody that, worked downtown tend to belong to.

[00:06:48]there was a Los Angeles L let it club, and then there was another club called the Jonathon club and there was another club called the California club. And these are places where, people would go to eat at lunch or [00:07:00] after work, and then they would have gyms and saunas and then. if you had guests come in from out of town, like they could stay there.

[00:07:06] And the one I joined was the one that anyone could join, which is the Los Angeles athletic club and that club, and just walk into and anybody off the street can join. and I think at the time, maybe it was, $500 or a thousand dollars and. you could pay them and just, belong there.

[00:07:25] And, I worked in a building with a lot of, jewelry manufacturers, which is a, a fairly, people work with their hands and a lot of them are from other countries and then speak English. I would walk over there with a lot of the people from my buildings and we would, go, I would see them in my gym.

[00:07:40] And then I started, when I started meeting, people that were,  heads of law firms, like big, prestigious law firms downtown, or that owned, companies and so forth, they started, telling me these, they belong to these, the Jonathon club I would hear about that.

[00:07:54] Or, sometimes they hear what the California club, there's a saying that, the P in Los Angeles, so the [00:08:00] people who run Los Angeles honor, the Jonathon club and the people own Los Angeles bond with California club. So the California club is, like probably the most prestigious and it's, people like Charlie Munger.

[00:08:10]Warren Buffett's business partner, belong there and, spend the day there for example. And there's still a lot of, very old, famous people and, and so I'd been to the California club and it wasn't really my thing. it's just, it's very, serious. And, most people are a lot older and it's just very formal and it didn't really interest me, but I kept meeting people, from Los Angeles.

[00:08:34] Who's. A lot of times their parents belong to this Jonathon club and then they belong there and, for whatever reason, I was impressed and, and they seem to, it seemed to be like a good place to network and, and, when I would tell these people proudly that I belong to the Los Angeles athletic club.

[00:08:51] They would not make any face and just thinking I'm not making a big deal out of it. one day I decided to see what the, this other club is about. Cause I'd [00:09:00] been to the, obviously the Los Angeles pathetic club and then, the California club, with partners from my firm.

[00:09:06] And, so I decided to see what this Jonathan club was like. And I walked over there and, and I walked over with, another attorney I knew and. Just walk right in. And I was looking at the lobby and, and the security, a couple of security guard showed up. And then, very like dignified, all the lady showed up and, basically kicked us out and told us we weren't dressed to be there and we didn't belong and that sort of thing.

[00:09:27] And, and I was embarrassed and upset by that. And, I told myself, that I would, learn how to get into this club in one day, go say hello to this woman, which I. ended up doing, but in order to get into this club, which I'm sure is the same for the California club, you need to have three people recommended to you, and, and they need to have, gone to your house and, gone to their house and you need to spend time with them.

[00:09:50] And there was all these kinds of requirements. like I do with everything I try to network into, I learned everything I could about it. I learned who belonged. I learned how to, who I knew that, belong [00:10:00] there and how I can, network with them and be friends with them.

[00:10:02] And, and that sort of thing. And, ended up, getting in the club, I don't know, two or three years later. after that period of time and it's like that with anything like, and it's a nice place that has a place you can go to the beach and some other things, but, it was just an exercise and networking and, everything like that is an exercise networking.

[00:10:21] If you want to get into, places like that, you'd have to network. And that ended up, helping me network into all sorts of other. business opportunities and people that ended up helping me, in my career. So it ended up being a good thing. that I did another quick story.

[00:10:36] A couple of quick stories are, getting into, law school and college and, networking was something that, from my standpoint that I felt like. that I needed to do, in order to, really, get into a good law school and to get into a good college. I, the law school I wanted to go in to get into, admitted at the time, from out of state, university of Virginia, about maybe [00:11:00] 7% of the people or something like that, it might even have been lower.

[00:11:03] And, and the numbers were very high from out of state. It just was a really hard place to get into because. and they only had about a hundred spots or something like that. And then everybody else had to be from in-state it's back in, a long time ago, they used to get most of their money from the state.

[00:11:17] So the state required them to get most of the people from in-state. and the reason I wanted to go there, was because someone. That I had known, in college had gone there. there was older than me and, and it was someone that I respected and they had a lot of good things to say about it.

[00:11:32] And, so what I did is I, the first thing I did when I found out about us, I went, the school had held kind of an admissions event with a bunch of other schools, in downtown Chicago. I went there when I was a sophomore and I met the admissions director. Sure. And for two years, before I applied.

[00:11:48]I wrote him letters, a couple of times a year and I would also call him, to chat. And, and then I met someone, that was, a class just above me that went there and, or two classes above me. [00:12:00] And, when he went to the school, during my senior year, I traveled there to visit him, went to classes.

[00:12:06] I stopped by the admissions office and said, hello to the admissions director again. and then I wrote him and told him how much I enjoyed it. visiting the school and, even though, it didn't have no, whatever, it was like a three nine and, one 70 on my LSATs or whatever the numbers were at the time did too get in there.

[00:12:23]I ended up, sticking out and be known by the people that I needed, whose attention that I needed. So I wasn't just one of those, a hundred applicants, like. at the top of the stairs was thrown down. And, and because of that, I was able to go to the place I wanted because I focused on it and I got to know the right people.

[00:12:42] And, and the people that, had the power to let me in, even though it was probably would have been a little bit of a crash. And I did the same thing with college. I went out and I met the admissions director. two or three times wrote letters to him. I visited the school, attended classes.

[00:12:59]wrote him another letter [00:13:00] about the experience stayed in touch and, also, know, was able to get their attention. Then I decided, later in my career that I wanted to go to a Stanford business school and, I did the same thing, there, and then when I was in college at Chicago, I actually was interested in potentially transferring to Harvard.

[00:13:18] And, there were a couple people from my school that had transferred and. and I they'd come for some weekend or something and I met them and I made friends with them. And then one of them knew the admissions director and she actually called me and asked me if I had any questions about the school.

[00:13:36]because her, her that had been, I don't know, it was her, her boyfriend's brother, that had transferred. and I never ended up going through with that, but, cause I liked where I was going to college, but the point is you need to network, into whatever you do.

[00:13:50] And you can really, you can bat above your weight and do all sorts of things. when you network and the point is when you're trying to get into very competitive places, if you're [00:14:00] able to, know people. And network and be known and be a face and trusted, then you're going to be much better off.

[00:14:09] So the big thing that you need to understand and that's missing, it's really missing from, from most people's lives. And, it's extremely important, is connection. connection is one of the most valuable things, threats. we have our families and that's a form of connection and you have.

[00:14:27]your friends and you have, other people, but there's very few people, that, that have, that sort of connection. And, and when you're able to connect with people, that. It makes a big difference to them. even, people that are hiring inside of law firms want connection and you want connection.

[00:14:44]when you're meeting people, when you're, asking questions and getting, and talking to people and out there that's a form of connection and people are afraid of rejection, of course, the more connection you have. the better and the world basically runs, on the power [00:15:00] of connection and people's connections.

[00:15:01] And when you just send an email about a job or something, or you apply online, that's not a connection. People do not think about you when they make a connection.  it just makes a huge difference. And, I've talked about this before, but I've had literally, people walk into my office off the street, and talk about how, they've, read stuff that I've written or, know who I am and they're interested and I've never hired them, and including attorneys, yeah, I've hired lots and lots of people. So the more connection there is. the, when any type of job that you're seeking, the more things are going to happen and you're going to achieve, far more than you would otherwise. And I'm going to talk later about how to find that connection and how to meet people.

[00:15:47]where there is that connection, the more connection you have, the better off they're going to be. And, like I showed you, I was able to. or, four different schools, Stanford business school, what Harvard, university of Virginia law [00:16:00] school and, and university Chicago, like all the school is able to network in and, and you'd think, it's very difficult, like trying to network and into a, a state school, when, you really have no connection, but you can make that connection, but you have to.

[00:16:14]figure out how to do it. And I'm going to tell you, how to do that. But the big thing to remember is anytime there's a job, most. Most, law firms are going to get a lot of applicants, especially ones that pay very well and are in big cities. they may get a hundred plus applicants for a position and a great, percentage of the time, the people that are getting those jobs have connection, even like a good, legal recruiter or legal placement person may have a connection.

[00:16:42] And what they're doing is they're. Vouching for you when they're providing them a kind of connection. and it's the quality or connection, but it's also, people wanted to help other people. So the question is how do network into, existing positions? So what I've done, is I've simply [00:17:00] decided if I want something, whether it's a school or a job or whatever, I simply decide on it and.

[00:17:06] What I want and I go after it. and I, and then when I meet people, I ask them questions, I find out information and, and a lot of times they'll be, some sort of connection that I can, take advantage of and, people like it when, when you talk to them about themselves, when you get information about, how do you, what they do when you ask them questions, who they know.

[00:17:28] And, and a lot of times people also like, helping you and making introductions. a lot of, the value of a lot of people, the terrorist, they consider us like the Rolodex and, and they believe in, their ability to. help other people, and they like that they can make connections, the more you use your relationships, the better off you'll be, because what happens is most people really do not trust others.

[00:17:52]what that means is, if you think about it, from a, from a historical starter standpoint, the people that we use to reentry [00:18:00] trust are the people that are closest to us, which are families. and then you step out from there and then you have maybe where you work and your community, when there's outsiders, we don't know them, they're unproven.

[00:18:10] And when someone makes a recommendation that we trust that sends down our defense mechanisms and so people have this stuff that's built in and it's been there for a long time that makes them not want to trust other people. And if you don't try and not trusting other people. you'd have to find a way to get around that and the best way to get around that is, through networking.

[00:18:35]in a law firm, it's very important to understand that, especially, there's kind of two aspects to, when you're looking for a position and the way that law firms and legal employers are thinking, because. there's lots of bad attorneys out there.

[00:18:48] As a matter of fact, a good portion of attorneys are bad. And what is a bad attorney about attorney? maybe someone that just has a bad work ethic. they may, they may lie. They may, they may actually [00:19:00] just not be good. They may not pick up on things. I was in a, in a law firm once.

[00:19:04] And I, if this is hard to believe, it was a graduate of an Ivy league law school and this person, three quarters into their first year. Was having a difficult time understanding the difference between state and federal law, when it comes to case law and, obviously there's, it's, it's I guess if you try to conceptualize the differences and why it's important, how they interrelate and you're reacting, you're fighting the federal state court, but this person couldn't understand it.

[00:19:32]that would be an example of a, of an attorney that was just having a hard time. It may not be good. There's people that are bad writers. There's people that, don't get along with their peers. There's people that cut corners. so there's all these things that can make a good and bad attorney.

[00:19:46] And so what happens is, law firms and everybody, when you're interviewing with them and talking to them, they're really trying to understand if you're going to be good or you're going to be bad and they don't know. And so [00:20:00] that's what they're looking for. And if they can come up with a reference many times, they're going to, an, a reference, meaning someone that's.

[00:20:08] That's worked directly for you that may recommend you, and can say good things about you. that's positive because the thing is, if they talked to another attorney in your existing firm, the odds are very good that, no, one's gonna say anything bad about you. And I know that a lot of times attorneys can be paranoid that they could be blackballed or something, but that's very rare unless you've done something like, probably illegal.

[00:20:30] I've been be what I'd have to say, but. for the most part, the attorneys do not say negative things about others. they don't talk negatively about, attorneys that leave their firms or, the attorneys they used to work with. And the reason for that as is because they don't want the same thing being done to them, but it's just an unwritten rule.

[00:20:46]attorneys, like if someone is recommended by someone, it can help quite a bit. in addition to, defined positions, one of the things to understand that's very important, when you're searching for a job is, [00:21:00] the majority of placements that I make are for positions that are really not even defined.

[00:21:05]they're just th the firms, or companies that, may have a need, but they haven't even advertised it, or they may have advertised something in the past. but they really, haven't advertised anything yet. And a law firm, we'll hire you, many times if they have work to do and can make money off you just like the same thing with the company.

[00:21:26] And a couple of examples that I have, I took a class with, my wife and with a rabbi and, after the class, the rabbi. Stayed in touch with me and would send me notes. And I said, mood sent him notes back. And, and then, a few years into this, kind of relationship, the rabbi, said that he had a, his son had a friend who, had just graduated from, a top five law school and couldn't find a job because he was 19 years old, which I guess he was the youngest graduate ever.

[00:21:59][00:22:00] to graduate from that law school. And, I hired him and, I hired him initially, to work, at, hourly, And then I, and then within, six months, he was so brilliant and smart and got such good results. I converted him to a salary that was the same as if he was working in a major law firm and he ended up saving a lot of his money and then, took several years off and traveled.

[00:22:22]people get positions like that all the time. I mentioned in passing wants to someone, I knew that, I could use someone, to work for me. And then they recommended, someone that they knew, that, relocated to my offices in California, from New York to be, and in house attorney for us for several years.

[00:22:39]and that was just someone that I knew. And these are two examples of people that I know and think about that, that I'm, I review hundreds of resumes of attorneys all day and I talk to people all day, but the comfort of someone coming through a rabbi or someone coming through, an acquaintance, is that connection a lot of times really is meaningful from the standpoint of, an employer, [00:23:00] because an employer feels, it makes them feel safer.

[00:23:02]there's people that come into. Companies and law firms all the time that don't have those kinds of connections. And if you don't have those kinds of connections, then you know, it's just, it can be scared, because people will, a lot of times people will steal from companies or they'll undermine, there's negative personalities that can undermine you and undermine the company.

[00:23:22] And, so when you bring in people like that, it can do a lot of harm. And so having that connection. something that, really people like, and it's huge. It's I would say that, that connection, when you have that connection with someone, it probably gives you, three to four better chance of getting a position, if you have that connection.

[00:23:42]the other thing too is, with law firms, I, I want to just explain real briefly because I think so many people. Out there, spend their time. A lot of times wasting their time looking for positions at places that actually have, [00:24:00] advertise positions. And, if you want to just think about how a law firm works, a law firm has work.

[00:24:08] And if a law firm has worked, that means that, they can have, three people. Do the work, but if they have enough work for four people that can also have four people to do the work. And, typically a law firm is going to pay you. If you're going to bring in say $300,000 a year in revenue for the law firm, in terms of your hours, then the law firm will pay you a hundred.

[00:24:28] If you're bringing 600, the law firm will, you should pay 200. That's usually how salaries balance out. But the point is if the law firm has enough billable hours for you and enough work coming in. That and they can hire you, then they will hire you. It doesn't matter if they've gone to the lengths of advertising something and, having an existing job, they're going to hire you.

[00:24:49]if they have the work, the same thing goes. with, companies will also hire you, if they have the work and if the law, if the company has the work and feels like they can [00:25:00] save money, meaning they don't have to hire attorneys or they can make money by having you Sue people and collect money or whatever, they'll bring you in too.

[00:25:08] So everybody that's hiring you is making business decisions. And if you're recommended to a company or you're recommended to a law firm or any other legal employer, many times, they will hire you. So I want to tell you, a real, quick story about how someone, that I know, got a position with, Quinn Emanuel, which is a, great law firm years from Godwin.

[00:25:32] When I worked there, everybody pretty much had gone to, I believe last polls in Stanford. maybe different now. Cause when I worked at a much smaller firm, but. there was an attorney, that, had been working for a third rate insurance defense firm at the time. And, and in the law firm, I was at Quinn, Emanuel was, had all these people from grade school and so forth.

[00:25:53] And this attorney had gone to, also gone to a third tier, law school or maybe secondary. I think Glidewell is a great school, so I'm not, [00:26:00] saying negative about it, but, he'd been out of school for over 10 years and. He didn't have anything in his background that would qualify, have qualified him to work at a firm like Quinn Emanuel, but his father had, was an attorney at a big, and actually had a law firm.

[00:26:16] And so he was very competitive and wanted to, get ahead. And, one day he had the opportunity to take a case where he would be against, Quinn Emanuel, a partner from that law firm. And. he took the case and he, during the course of the case, the attorney got to see his writing ability.

[00:26:35]and he wanted to also show him when they finally got to trial, that, he was qualified to work at a firm like that. when the trial happened, he would meet with the attorney for lunch. he, did a good job trying to negotiate with him and. but he also expressed some mild dissatisfaction with where he was working and, at the end of the trial, without him ever asking for it, the partner that he'd been against called them up [00:27:00] and, asked him if he wanted to work there and there was no opening.

[00:27:04]and he wasn't even qualified to work there based on his background. But, because he had done such a good job making that connection with an important partner. he was able to get a position. He personalized himself. He asked the, the partner about himself and he networked and he made that happened.

[00:27:23] And this sort of, I think it happens all the time. you can go to work for opposing counsel. You can go to work for a company that you represent. or that your company, your firm represents, there's all sorts of ways, that you can get positions and you need to really, think in terms of, when you want something, how do you go about meeting the people and impressing the people that are going to be able to hire you?

[00:27:46] And in this case, this attorney had spent, 10 years trying to be the best attorney. It could be. never would've had the opportunity if he just applied to that law firm by sending the resume. just imagine what would have [00:28:00] happened. It would have just bounced instantly, nothing, ever would have happened.

[00:28:04] And, one thing I'll tell you that it's interesting to me, just from the standpoint of, being in the legal placement business, and I know, lots of. people inside of law firms and stuff all over the country, and sometimes I'll talk to candidates and, they will, have applied to, I don't know, say they want to work in Los Angeles, 50 firms in Los Angeles.

[00:28:28] And, and not even a peep, like the law firms have respond and nothing happens. And then I will work with them, sometime later when they had the same experience and just, and I'll send them out to firms and, and the law firms know me and all of a sudden, the person starts getting all these interviews and offers nothing's changed.

[00:28:48] The only thing that's changed is they're coming. recommended by someone that the law firm may be comfortable with, or someone different. when someone's recommended you many times that can help. Now, it's not to say that. [00:29:00] networking with someone inside the law firm that works.

[00:29:02] There is always the best thing, cause it's not. And I'll just tell you, one quick story is a lot of times people will, give their resume to, an associate that they knew our classmate from law school and, that can work to some extent. But the problem is you never know that person standing really.

[00:29:20] And the law firm. And or you don't never know if that person knows negative information about you and they may pass that along. You just never know so many times, or that person could be competitive with you so many times, when you are trying to network and get into positions, it's the people you want to network with are going to be, if you can, the people that have decision-making power.

[00:29:39] So that would be, you try to network in with, if you know a partner or something along those lines, that's in charge of hiring or even an HR person. They have a lot of power too. So you have to be selective about who you network with and be careful, but, that can help.

[00:29:54] So when you network, for a position that doesn't exist, you can do it in a lot of ways. one of [00:30:00] the ways you can do it is you can just. make people that, aware of, that you're, potentially interested, in a physician can.

[00:30:07]and every time, you, if you want to think about it, the people that you may know, when you get out there and you make contact with people, and I'm going to talk more about this later, but there's lots and lots of people. that you can meet and that you can draw on that, that you may not have, I didn't realize.

[00:30:23] And those would be like, your friends, for example, friends can help you. former friends can even help me that you may not know if he talking to very much right now and acquaintances and, relatives and. coworkers and, professors in law school, your neighbors, people you do business with former clients, current clients, former neighbors, your spouse or someone, I had an interesting thing happened, years ago.

[00:30:47]this is actually my first marriage. The, I was, working in, Los Angeles and, and my wife was working for a woman, that in New York that was pretty powerful. [00:31:00] And she knew, the person that one of the founders of the law firm freed Frank. And, she wanted me to New York and. And basically I was told if I wanted to, that I could go to work there without even having to apply.

[00:31:14] And that would have been a very difficult, from, to get into normally. So that's an example of, your spouse, helping you with networking and. and, clubs and organizations and places that you join, can also be a great source of, places, people to, okay.

[00:31:29] Dan, and, one of the things I would also say is, the most, the recruiters in our company are attorneys and, and almost all of them have come through, recommendations of people that got to know them either. Oh, the recruiters were candidates or the company in the past, or they were law school, classmates and friends of someone.

[00:31:48] And so that level of trust and just make a major difference. And, and, in the people that, that you work with and it makes me comfortable hiring people that come through recommendations. [00:32:00] and if you know the right people, there's just all sorts of opportunities that can access.

[00:32:03] When I, right before I was, starting, in, in, in the recruiting business, I, I was considering, what to do, did I want to go to work for a company? Did I want to do, what did I want to do? and I had a friend that had that, a client that was in the, oil and gas business, but, and he needed an in-house attorney and.

[00:32:23] Yeah. He said, you should go talk to this person. And so that, that actually led to a job. And that was just through a friend of mine that was at another firm. And, I've had relatives. when I was in, school, I had a relative, get me a position, in a, that I didn't take, I, in, in a local law firm, in the city I was in and, so all these people, if you write down all the different types of people that, they can all help you, with, in terms of finding a position or ones that may not even exist.

[00:32:51]when, like I said earlier, and it's just, it's very important to understand this kind of distinction between jobs that exist and do not exist because, as a, [00:33:00] as someone that's in the recruiting and placement business, I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but.

[00:33:04]the majority of people that I, more majority of jobs I get for people are for places that do not even have openings and, and when I've hired people to work here, I've almost always hired people when there's not even existing openings. I just, see no reason not to vary the person, if they apply and, the person looks really good.

[00:33:25] and then I'll bring them in. And, and I also figure I can't lose, and money and I may even be able to make money by bringing them in. law firms that have worked pilot can always make money by hiring you. And if a law firm likes you or believes you can use you, it's going to take the recommendation seriously.

[00:33:43]if someone, that, it may no, and no other thing that's interesting is, and I'm going to talk about this and this is a fun story. Is, you can literally, work with anyone you want, if you know how to network and you get good at, so I'm going to tell you a personal story about how I came to work, with [00:34:00] Tony Robbins.

[00:34:01]so when I was about five years into being a recruiter, I went to a placement and the play, a seminar and the seminar, was really not a very good seminar. It was, I know it's by Jack Canty over something like chicken soup for the soul. And it was just all these people that got up and, tried to sell something and I thought, what's going to learn, but it was all about, they would teach us something and they would try to sell you something, which is how a lot of seminars are.

[00:34:24]at one point, the sky got up, named Chad Holmes and, he got up and made it, and he talked about how he'd worked for Charlie Munger. who's to own the Los Angeles daily journal, which is a legal publication. And, and he'd worked helping, Charlie Munger with some legal businesses. So when I heard that, when I heard Chad talk about that, I was very interested because, that, I'm in the legal business and those were they were doing stuff similar to what I was interested in.

[00:34:52] And so somewhere at some point during his talk, he. He led dropped in that he knew Tony Robbins or something [00:35:00] or done something for Tony Robbins. I don't know what it was, but, at that point I knew because I'd always, when I was younger, I. read a book by Tony Robbins called unlimited power that I thought was very good.

[00:35:11] And it was one of my favorite books of all time. And I, really felt like I learned a lot from it and it helped me, become, learned even some of the, just gave me the confidence to do even some of the networking stuff I did to get into law school and other things. And. and I liked the book and that I'd listened to some tapes by Tony Robbins at the time there were no DVD or actually, no, they were, I think it might've been CBS, but no tapes or speakers or whatever, but, and I really benefited from those.

[00:35:36] And so I always looked up this money, Rotmans, I'd seen him on television and, and I decided, that I'd like to meet Tony Robinson day. And so what I did is, I talked to homes. at the, the seminar homes didn't really pay much attention to me. There was the huge crowd of people around him.

[00:35:52]but I purchased a course, that he had, come out with, that he was selling at, the seminar. And I talked about. ways [00:36:00] to get business, or I don't know, it was, he had his marketing tactics or something and I listened to it. then I called chat, got in touch with them on the phone and asked him if he'd be interested in doing some consulting work for one of my businesses.

[00:36:12] And, I hired him to put together, To interview with my employees and put together some, stuff. And then I spent a day, with chat, meeting with him and, we got along well and, and I actually never hired him to do like a big consulting program. I just hired him to take a look at the company and, and spend a couple of days doing that and write a short report, but I've stayed in touch with him.

[00:36:33] And, I ended up. making friends with him. I had dinner with him, a few times and dissolve San Angeles. I met his daughter, having morbid of my house in a couple of occasions when I had parties and I got to know his family well and his wife and, and I always told him he should write a book.

[00:36:48] And then he started writing the book. It became a number one bestselling book called the ultimate sales machine. I read drafts of it. I spent a lot of time giving him feedback on the book and then. and then right before the [00:37:00] book came out, I gave him a testimonial, which is, still on the cover of the book.

[00:37:04] And I became a huge fan of his and, in a good friend of his and, and he'd never had anybody really, I don't think, follow his advice so closely and, be a real fan of his and want the best for him, which I did. And I liked him and, and I got involved with him, from the standpoint that.

[00:37:22]I really was interested in the stuff he was talking about and doing, I liked his connection with Charlie Munger and how he'd run businesses and his ideas and his passion for what he did. And, and I never even talked about, Tony Robbins, and the whole thing. And then, and then he and Tony Robbins did a seminar together, when, after Chet's book came out and, chat con after, yeah, and I think Tony Robbins got interested in working with him because he started becoming.

[00:37:46]very well known and, and I went to the, seminar, which I thought Chad charged me $10,000 to go to it, which was a price everyone was paying, but I still went. And, anyway, so when I went to the seminar, I told Chad, [00:38:00] I'd love to sit down and meet with Robin. So he, he arranged a meeting and I went into this.

[00:38:04] Room and Robins was sitting there and all black and, and there was this kind of room off the side of, like in the, yeah, Futterman I was just with he just chat. just, Robins and, I hit it off with them. I spent maybe an hour and half talking to him and, and I was very impressed with him and I explained to him the effect he had on my life from the stuff that I, read about earlier, with him and how much I admired him.

[00:38:28]and how much I'd like to work with him in the future. I told him about several, a few business ideas that I had to work with him and, created a presentation, to give to him for these business ideas. And, and then, Robbins actually after.

[00:38:42]the seminar invited me to his home in Fiji and put me up and, beautiful. he's got houses there and, I spent a week with them there and then he invited me to go with him to Australia and I stayed in touch with him for several years. And, and then he had a company at two companies.

[00:38:57] One is the personal development and other ones are business [00:39:00] development. I took a role there as a chief technology officer, which I'm not a tech person, but, but anyway, and then I even ended up speaking to the seminars about business. I wrote a book, to give out of the seminars and, and, and did some other stuff.

[00:39:14] So that was a way that I networked into something like that. And yeah. the thing about networking and something with, becoming, someone that knows Tony Robbins and stuff is that's not an easy thing to do. you think about, the millions of people, that would like to meet someone like that.

[00:39:28] And but the way I was able to do that was by networking with, someone that, that had access to him and that, would be, and that I was able to impress. And so when I. Did ask to meet with Robbins, at the seminar, Chet was more than happy to introduce me because, and provide a very enthusiastic recommendation because I'd also been, Chet's biggest fan.

[00:39:50]and I created a job based on that and, my ability to network into it. the question is, how do you, network into something, into a legal position [00:40:00] and. what is the best way, to do that? the first thing is you need to know, exactly, what it is that you want and you need to get, and the only way to really know what you want is to expose yourself to a lot of different ideas and things about what you want.

[00:40:15] And you have to have really good reasons for it. And because, you're going to have to really impress a lot of people along the way. when I, when I wanted to go to, university of Virginia law school, I knew what I wanted when I wanted to go to the college. I knew what I want when I wanted to, go to Stanford business school.

[00:40:32] I knew what I wanted when I wanted to. work with Robinson knew what I wanted. And then when, the guy that got a job with Quinn Emanuel, wanted to work there, he knew what he wanted and, so you have to know what you want and, and you, and that's really the problem.

[00:40:46] And we will discuss in subsequent weeks, all sorts of stuff, about goal setting. that's going to, change your career. if you really understand that and you understand. You know what it is that you want and what you're good at and what you can offer, but, you [00:41:00] have to want it, you have to really, and you have to have reasons for wanting something.

[00:41:04] And so if you don't have those reasons, then that's going to help you, hurt you quite a bit. So the way, you really do all, this is. once you know what you want and, and I wanna, just be very clear about what you want to before we talk about this is, you really need to think about what it is that you want and and what you don't want.

[00:41:27] And sometimes what you can write down is you can write down what you want or what you don't want. And, and if you know what you don't want, then that's going to help you with what you want. But, In the, there's a, it's actually not a true story. there's some truth to it, but it's not a true story, but there was a, a story that used to be circulated a lot that, in, in, I don't know when, like the.

[00:41:48] The 1950s or something that they had, or 1940s they'd asked everybody that was graduating from Yale college, what they wanted to do or what [00:42:00] they wanted to be, or what was their, what was it that were, where did they, what was their career goal or what did they want to do? Where do they want to be?

[00:42:07] And, 30 years or something, or maybe it was 40 years, I don't remember. But, and the idea was that they took those a thousand people and then. and out of those thousand people only 50 with any definitiveness could write down what they really wanted. and then at the end of those, 30 or 40 years, they came back and they asked, those people what they were doing and the people that had goals and, and in their net worth or something along those lines.

[00:42:33] And the idea was is that, that 5% of the people had more. net worth and we're happier and better adjusted. And, then, but then 95%, and not only that, but the 5% had something like two times as much net worth, just that 5%, then the 95% that did it. And then certainly finances aren't everything.

[00:42:53] But the other point was they were happier. And, so when you have a goal, then you have something, you want, then you can go after it and then [00:43:00] you can, other people will be, in position to help you. And, and that, and a lot of this goes to the fact that, you really need to want to be a liar and you really need to want to work in a law firm or for a judge or for, a company or wherever it is you want to work, but you really need to, do that.

[00:43:15] So I wrote down or told you earlier, and I will send you a link where you can get this list, your friends, former friends, you need to write down, between the one and 500 people. that you may know. And, with those people, once you write down those people, just remember that, if each of those people knows 100 people and you go a hundred times a hundred, that's a million people.

[00:43:37] So you'd have the ability to really, reach out and potentially contact a lot of people. if you're contacting all those people and all you do, when you're networking, there's really no. science to it. you take those a hundred people that, and you, you write them down and, and then you contact them and you don't contact them and ask them for everything.

[00:43:58] You just, really just [00:44:00] call them and the phone and, talk to them and, and ask them, how they're doing and check in and. You don't even need to ask for anything. And then you should try to, follow up with those people. every once in awhile and most people do not do that.

[00:44:14]people that are very successful, like bill, Clinton's a perfect example. This is the kind of thing that he's done. people that I know in my life that became very successful, did this, and it's just. you create all these kind of advocates for people and people that will mention your name and stuff in the market.

[00:44:30] And they teach a lot of these skills to, people that go into, for example, selling, financial services or, things like that. And this is, these are real major skills and things that you need to do in order to get ahead and, and writing down those people, we'll help you.

[00:44:45] And, I've certainly made a lot of mistakes, with networking, because, and I'll tell you that, about, in a minute, you, can't just networking is not just asking people for help. it's really making connection with people and seeing how they're doing and asking them [00:45:00] about themselves and not talking about your needs.

[00:45:02]you just need to. do what you can to, network with people and to be seen as a positive person that they could help. And a lot of times talking about other topics is really, yeah. the most important thing, when I talked to people, looking for jobs, every day, and I talked to, employers hiring people every day.

[00:45:22] And I would say that when I talked to someone about their job search, more than, 70% of the conversation or even 80% is about nothing to do with the fact that person, about what they're searching for. It's about them personally. it's the same thing with, law firms and people, because it's about the connection and the connection is really, what's most important people like people that.

[00:45:47]make them feel good about themselves. the friend and minor Lynette, really a friend of more of an acquaintance. told me, his name is Jay Abraham and he's a kind of a marketing person that I met through Chad Holmes. He told me that, one time he was [00:46:00] on a plane and he was on like a three-hour flight.

[00:46:03] And, he started, he was sitting next to someone and he asked that person, the whole flight. Questions about themselves and the person wasn't any buddy in particular, they were just someone that you'd happened to be sitting next to him. And, in Jason, he didn't say a single word, the whole flight hardly, they just kept asking the guy questions about himself at the end of the flight.

[00:46:25]the guy said to him, this has been the most interesting conversation I've had in a long time. And it wasn't a conversation. It was a one way, discussion, but. The point is he was able to make connection. And, when you ask people, about themselves, it can make, a huge step.

[00:46:41]Most people will wonder why you're calling, if you haven't spoken to them. And, and, you really just need to build a network because you never know, when you're gonna need it. And you're never know when you're going to need people. you should always be making some concerted effort to take some time out of your schedule to network.

[00:46:59] And [00:47:00] most people will not. do not do this. but you're going to be happier and you'll get more positions and actually, the connection you get with people, it's going to make you a lot happier, if you're able to consistently network. So I'll tell you a quick story. when I was in my, first year of law school, I was thinking about working in Detroit, where I'm from for the summer.

[00:47:19] And I really didn't know a lot of attorneys and, but I wrote a letter. maybe, or, early December Thanksgiving to, someone, a partner that was in a big law firm that I'd only met once, talking about, why I thought I would be qualified to work there. And, and I was looking for a summer job and, and I sent him a letter and I told them I would call him right after Christmas.

[00:47:43] And I picked up the phone and I called them on the 26th of December and, told them I was calling about this job and he hung up on me. And, I, he, he basically said something like I gave it to human resources and then hung up the phone and I was terrified. very setback and [00:48:00] upset, like I'd done something.

[00:48:02]very bad. And, and and I went about it the wrong way. I did, that's the exact wrong way to network. and people have tried to network like that with me too. They've, relatives have come to me and they've said something like, I need a position or, and, without really providing value or showing any interest and you need to, do things much differently and.

[00:48:23]and I've made a lot of networking mistakes. I'm certainly not perfect. but, what I should have done was calm on the phone or message him and asked him if I could meet him for coffee to his office to ask him some questions. And then I could have told them, I didn't know any attorneys in the chart.

[00:48:36] I wanted to get some information about the law firms and what it would be like. And, and maybe ask them just for an informational interview and informational interviews and things like that can go along the way. And then when you do an informational interview, you never actually asked for a job and you let the person, cha chase you and come after you.

[00:48:54] That makes you seem much more, in demand and like somebody that would, [00:49:00] somebody would like, and, or you meet someone for coffee. I had, there was a guy once that. it was networking with me and all he wanted me to do. He was a very successful, person that I met through the Tony Robbins organization.

[00:49:12] And, and he, contacted me and wanted to meet for coffee. And then he wanted to meet for, to do, to do all this stuff. And, so I certainly was happy to meet with him. And then I had lunch with him and then, he told me about some stuff he was doing.

[00:49:27]he sent me a copy of a course. He was working out with another girl and then, finally he never asked me for anything and I, I certainly enjoying this attention, but, I said to him, is there anything I can do for you? And he said, I just wanted to know, how you did this and this.

[00:49:42] And all he wanted was some. advice about, things that he could do with his career and what I've done. and I was just amazed by that, that, he had, spent all this time and doing this just to get asked some questions and I was happy to give him the answers to the questions.

[00:49:57] And, I almost felt bad that I, he [00:50:00] spent so much time networking. We were just cause he was asking questions. And, so that's very effective, way of networking is when you meet people and you offer them things and you try to help them and you provide value before you ask for anything.

[00:50:13] And, I was talking yesterday to, the head of, one of them. this guy is incredible. he's got, I don't know, eight or $10 million for the business. He's in his early forties and he's, really, one of the top producers or one of the top law firms, in the country and, and everything that he does is, about networking and going out and, and meeting people and providing value and helping people even sometimes when he doesn't have to build the hours and, and then those people, when they get in a position to help him.

[00:50:43] Have given him a lot of business and they don't question the bills as much and, and, and they have really made this guy astonishing and, and he also knew works and he had called me to network, and, and I, he thought so that I provided him value by, career advice or throughout his career.

[00:51:00] [00:50:59] So the point is that networking is just, so powerful and. informational interviews are something that I really liked if you want to meet someone in industry. I, had an experience where, I did some networking and it was fun. I read a book by, I think it was by actually Katie Kirk.

[00:51:17] It was called, the trial lawyers and she's, and I think she wrote it when she was much younger before she got into television. And. I read about an attorney in Chicago named Phil Corboy and everything that he'd done. And, I was so impressed with her book and. and I, and I ended up, and he's no longer alive, but he was considered the best plaintiff's attorney and a Chicago for many, for several decades.

[00:51:39] And, and he, and I ended up calling him and asking him to do an informational interview and telling him I was writing an article about him, which I was, I wrote a article for my, towards, towards class. and, and he met with me. And when he met with me, I made the mistake of telling him I'd like to work for him.

[00:51:56] And, and had I done that differently, I probably would have been able to get in. And [00:52:00] that was an example of an unsuccessful network, but I got to spend, a couple hours with the most famous, plaintiff's attorney in the country, which was a very. good experience and, and when people try to meet with us and ask us for advice and, want to know how we did things and stuff, it's very flattering.

[00:52:17] And very few people do that. It's, it's something that, if you really want something, if you want to meet, movie stars or you want to meet other people, like I've met. All these, very famous people and, that I never would have met had I not networked and been interested in.

[00:52:33]and many times it's not even wanting to, wanting anything from those people. it's more just being interested in them that, that got me to network with them. It wasn't any special, desire to, get anything from them. And, certainly from the school and stuff, it was a desire to go there, but.

[00:52:49]it was also letting them know that I had something to contribute, and that there were things about those organizations and people, that I, that made me, more than just a piece of paper and, so [00:53:00] that's one of the most important things. And if you learn networking really in any end, you make it a habit.

[00:53:06]it's something that will change your career in your life. It's going to drive you to. great Heights in a will, do a lot for you, not just in terms of the jobs you get, but in terms of the business you've got on the friendships you've got in the people that you meet and so forth.

[00:53:20] And that's one reason I liked, the informational networks, interview so much, people are not off guard. If someone, contacts you and says, there's some cross with you because you're a law student, or you're an attorney. could they have a few minutes of your time?

[00:53:35] Could you offer them advice? You will, and you'll give them, your most, the vice you can. And you'll also think if you have the resources to help them, that you will, and it makes you feel important and it makes you feel, and the other thing too, is that, think about it when you give advice to people.

[00:53:50]what you're doing is you're usually going to be, summarizing,  the things that you've learned and, and giving in passing that experience on very quickly [00:54:00] and using that effectively. and that's important. So I'll tell you another quick story.

[00:54:05]Aquinnah manual. when I was at Quinn manual, John Quinn, who's young at the time, he was still in his forties. and the founding partner of the firm, bill RFR, they held a little one hour lunch meeting on how to get business and at the time, and then he was a very well-respected and he's more now, but he was even then like very well-respected now.

[00:54:25] And he said something that I'll never forget. He said that the biggest regret. His career had always been, not being more helpful to the people he met earlier in his career, and also burning bridges with people who could have helped him. And here he is, think about that. that law firm now, does over a billion dollars a year in revenue.

[00:54:43] And, at the time was started by, it was maybe, 40 attorneys. And, it's grown to, I don't know, maybe a thousand attorneys and, but he said that the biggest mistake of his career was having burn bridges. And, I think that's just an amazing story because, he's saying how important [00:55:00] like networking was.

[00:55:01] And even back then, like he learned these lessons, but he didn't. Effectively network when he was younger, he'd learned these lessons and he was in his forties. he literally, might've been 45 back then or even younger. And, and he had, and learned this lesson and made that a priority.

[00:55:19]of his career. And it's something that I've always remembered, because, of how important it is and, and, and what it can do for you. And you can really network your way into the kind of anything, I, years ago I, I'd spent founder time with the founders of a company called vol and I'm going to head to lunch with them and gone out and networked and met with them.

[00:55:41] Yeah. and, and then, and what had happened was, I think they'd sold it to a, they know they'd sold it to a private equity company, but one of them it's still stayed on. And I knew these guys v