The Five Reasons Law Firms Do Not Hire You After an Interview

Description

In this webinar, Harrison discusses a crucial topic that can transform the trajectory of your legal career: "The Five Reasons Law Firms Do Not Hire You After an Interview." Harrison emphasizes the significance of understanding these reasons, as they can help you secure positions and excel in them.

Harrison's extensive experience coaching individuals through interviews and job searches provides valuable insights. He addresses the common issue of candidates attending numerous interviews without securing a job offer, shedding light on why this happens and how to avoid it.

The first and foremost reason he highlights is the importance of whether you, as a candidate, can demonstrate that you will support and have the backs of those interviewing you. Harrison delves into the underlying insecurities that lawyers often carry due to their profession's competitive and challenging nature. Attorneys often feel isolated, making support a critical factor in their decision-making.

Harrison explains that law firms invest significant time in interviews because they want to hire you. However, if you do not convey your willingness to support and collaborate effectively, they may reject you, providing vague reasons that do not reflect the actual cause of your rejection.

According to Harrison, support extends beyond interviews; it plays a pivotal role in maintaining your position, securing clients, and advancing your career. To succeed, you must prioritize support over ego, demonstrating your commitment to helping others and fostering a collaborative environment.

Harrison shares anecdotes and real-world examples throughout the webinar, reinforcing that people seek acceptance, love, and care in their professional relationships. By showcasing your readiness to support, you not only differentiate yourself but also create a positive impression that can lead to job offers and career advancement.

In conclusion, Harrison's webinar offers a unique perspective on securing legal positions by highlighting the importance of support and collaboration in a competitive field. Understanding and implementing these principles can be a game-changer in your legal career, enabling you to stand out, secure job offers, and thrive in your legal practice.

Transcript

All right. So, we're going to get started with this webinar. This is, in my opinion, an essential webinar for interviewers. I think you understand what I'm going to talk about today. It could change the direction of your career. I know of several people I've coached and interviews that have been on, like ten interviews and no job.
 
Others have been on 20 and no job. Some people came to me unemployed and had no job after some time. So this is for more than just people who can't get jobs. This is a way to distinguish yourself completely. And interviews more so than anybody else and gets jobs where you never thought you would. This can get you jobs in firms that are not as prestigious as you're at, it can get you jobs at, and this is really what I'm going to teach you is how people get jobs at even better firms, and they believe they're capable of and let me just grab something here.
 
I'm sorry. Okay, so this can help you get positions at firms that are even more prestigious than you're at. It can help you get positions at pretty much any place you interview. So whether or not you're interviewing with the law firm or in-house or the government, this is, in my opinion, could be.
 
One of the more important lessons you ever learn about getting jobs. Not only does this talk to you about how to get jobs, but it talks to you about what you need to do to stay employed, the things that the most successful attorneys do that others don't.
 
Things that you can do to get clients. So these reasons are fundamental to everything that you may want to do, that you're trying to achieve when you have it when you're trying to get a job.
 
So, I like this webinar. This is the first time I presented it, and again, it's changed so many careers once you realize the stuff I'm going to talk about, and it can just make a massive difference all around.
 
And I apologize for talking so much about how important this is; these reasons are significant. So, this is a live webinar. What I encourage people to do during the webinar is if you have questions or if there are things that you think I'm talking about that you want me to talk about after the webinar.
 
Type them into the Q and A, and I'll answer them. Also, after the webinar, I'll take questions and answer as many questions as everyone has. And then, and then in addition to that, I will, yeah, the questions you asked, I guess the one I was going to say, the questions you asked do not have to do any, they don't have to do with What we're talking about today, I'll just I'll answer about any questions you have related to your career.
 
I think for a lot of people, it is beneficial because many times, you may be making mistakes and different things and need to figure out why. But this webinar today is really about that. So 1 of the things that's important to understand. This is very important. And it's something you should always remember if someone invites you into an interview; they've already seen your experience on your resume.
They know you can do the position based on what you've written on your resume. And it's different from when you're coming in, and they're asking you to explain your resume. They already know the other important thing and may ask questions about it just to make conversation. But pretty much they know that, and then another thing I just want to bring to everyone's attention.
 
When someone brings you an interview, they want to hire you because they're taking time to talk to you; they think your resume looks good. So it's most often the things you say in the interview and how you portray yourself in that interview, and these five questions will get into that.
 
And when people reject you after an interview, they usually say things like your experience needs to be corrected. Or we found some, they'll give you reasons like that, that don't say much. And rarely what happens most of the time, what happens when you don't get a job after an interview is you're being disqualified by what I will talk about today, and that's really what happened. So many firms will ghost you, they won't talk, and they'll give you weird reasons, but these are almost always blowing. These five things are really why you don't get jobs.
 
And so this is what I'm going to talk about right now. And again, I would take notes if you have them. I would write this stuff down. I would think about how you may have done this improperly. So, the first essential question is whether this attorney supports me and has my back.
 
That's the question that people are asking. They want to ensure you will support them, meaning you will protect them. You're going to do what they want you to do. And then you're not a threat to them. And both associates that you're interviewing are asking that.
 
So the associates ask, does this person look like they'll make me look good? Or are they a threat? And partners are also asking that as well. One important thing to understand about law firms and attorneys is that all these people constantly come at you when you're an attorney.
 
The courts are coming at you. The other side is coming after you if you're a corporate attorney. Everyone's undermining you, including people in your firm. That's what's so scary. So, this is a tough job being an attorney. You have clients, you have opposing counsel, you have all these people that are coming after you and making you feel threatened.
 
And so because of that, many attorneys feel like they're very much alone. They feel that they are threatening to them, too, that there are threats that no one's got their back. And so this is really how they feel. And imagine, if you're an attorney, you would feel that you probably feel that way too.
 
If you're a solo practitioner, your clients need to pay you. If you're a law firm attorney, you're a threat of losing your job. You're all these different things. And so attorneys feel very much alone. And Just because of that, if you work in a law firm, you may see that the attorneys get very close to their secretaries, paralegals, or younger attorneys if they're older because they want to feel supported. It's essential to be supportive, so I'll talk a little more about that.
 
But one of the things that's very difficult for attorneys is not all, but most of them don't get into law school. They wanted to, some of them did, some didn't. But it's very competitive. And very few attorneys often get into the best law firms they want to.
 
Their clients are only sometimes happy with them. They're often undermined by their peers, meaning the people you're working with aren't, especially at your level, and are only out sometimes to make you look good. Many attorneys, especially in this economy, are laid off or fired.
 
So I often notice you are worried about your job. And it bothers me when you are worried about being humiliated by your colleagues. This is, it's competitive, and there's always people. In firms, huge ones undermine you and make you look bad. I saw it was incredible.
 
And really, it's partners, a lot of times that, are even more under scrutiny. I saw a partner I was talking to at a large law firm in New York not too long ago, and people said he drank too much at a party. He got into a taxi and fell, and he was in front of a bunch of other partners, and suddenly, because they thought he drank too much, his position was at risk. Everyone kept bringing it up, and they, people looked at it, so that kind of stuff makes people insecure, and being an attorney with all the rejection and the difficulty of getting into the places you want and all these things creates a lot of insecurities.
 
And a lot of attorneys feel very unprotected and very much alone. And because it's just the way the profession works. And even if you become successful. For a lot of attorneys, you still feel that way. I read stories all the time. I run into people all the time, very successful attorneys who have drug problems and things, and then they can't get along with their spouses because they're conflicted or tired when they get home.
 
And even the more successful you are, the more likely this will happen. I always talk to retired partners because they can't deal with their colleagues. And so anyway, just to give you the reason for this liars. Only sometimes, they sometimes feel supported.
 
They don't feel that people have their back, and it's challenging. They, they need that, and you would need that, and you need that. So, this is extremely important for attorneys to feel supported. And like people have their back, all you need to do is look, in most cases, at the relationship that attorneys may have with secretaries, paralegals, and other staff and how they feel more supported in those relationships. And more the people that those people will not come after them. It's a better relationship many times with other attorneys. And so if you can make other people in your firm, including associates, including junior associates, a lot lower than you, including partners.
 
And so forth and interviews, but also in your job, you're almost always going to retain a job. You're rarely going not to get a job. You're also never going to have too many issues getting clients and advancing if people believe you have their back, so I want just to Bring up a few points and go off track a little bit here; one of the things that that law school breeds that that being an attorney breeds is this kind of fascination and not fascination, but allegiance to your ego, meaning, I need to protect myself. How does this make me look?
 
I need to be better than this person. I need to do this. But really, the whole sea changed. It is when you have someone else's back. And that's just a different way of thinking. It's how people teach things in the Bible, Judaism, Islam, and a lot of other stuff; when you let your ego go, you can care for others and make them feel taken care of, and your whole life changes.
 
And your whole career will change. I'm not saying you'll never get laid off or there's not enough work, but if you believe your purpose is to support others, including clients, and make people feel good, you're in excellent shape. So, just again, as I said, when the law firm invites you in for an interview, they want to hire you and the best law firms.
 
They are the best law firms because of the quality of the people working there. This means how attorneys think about business, their educational qualifications and all these sorts of things, and the type of people they're giving work to. And a law firm, if they hire them correctly, meaning they don't hire the correct type of people, then they're in trouble.
 
And because the only product a law firm has, if you think about it, the only thing it's selling are the people working there. And if the law firm hires the wrong people, there's a lot of trouble. So one of the things I also say that's very important, and I want you to make sure that you understand, is when you go into interviews, your only job is to get the interview.
 
If they say something about compensation, you don't mind. You don't; you just agree with it. You don't say anything, and you act nice. If they say something about the culture, you don't mind. You don't just be nice. If they say something. About the hours you don't like because you need to get every interview and turn it into a job, even if it's not a job you'll take because you can often be amazed by things you learn not just in interviews, but after you get the job and they ask questions.
 
And In this rule, I'll talk about this in a lot more detail, but many of the attorneys who can understand this rule of supporting others go into interviews and get just about every job they apply for; they don't get jobs, and they walk into interviews, and they're like, they talk about, what can I, how would I help?
 
How would I? What would my most significant contribution have? What do you need? What are you looking for? I want to be committed. I want to help and all that sort of thing. And the number one characteristic of the people who get the most jobs, and again, I'm talking about five different things here, is that they seem like they'll support the interviewer, that the interviewer feels that that person will help them, make them look good, all this sort of thing because most attorneys don't feel that.
 
Suppose you come across differently. This means you start questioning compensation, you start asking questions about negative things you've heard, you start not making eye contact with the interviewer, you don't make the interviewer feel good about themselves, unlike you're going to help them, you don't, there are so many things that go into this, but these are some of the most important things you need to show up for an interview and be eager and excited and act like you you're a team player all these sorts of things.
 
So here, there's a question of what it means to support the interviewer. Different types of people are you're going to in an interview; you'll encounter different types of people. If you're not a nerd, you'll often encounter people who seem very nerdy.
 
Or if you are nerdy, more nerdy than you. And these people know how others see them. They know that they're like that. And they know that people think that of them. And then sometimes some attorneys are the opposite. They may have excellent social skills and may not be nerdy, but sometimes, they have different intellects.
 
So they're insecure about that. So everyone. Has insecurities. Just think about yourself. There are tons and tons of insecurities. And what happens with people is they go around all closed up, protecting themselves from negative comments and avoiding situations like that.
 
And so you must understand that everyone, including you, including the most successful attorneys, may have issues and be insecure about things. Sometimes, successful attorneys may have had some bad things in their background. Sometimes, people might be self-conscious about height and weight, but everyone has insecurities.
 
And then, when it comes down to it, everybody out there wants to feel accepted, loved, and cared about too. Sometimes, attorneys become attorneys because they want recognition from their parents or to prove that they're more worthy than they were when they were younger.
 
And so people are going through life very insecure, but wanting to feel loved, accepted, cared about. And that's often the greatest gift. You can give that you can give someone. And so everybody's looking for people to support them. You're looking for family members to support you.
 
If family members don't support you, you cut them off. You're looking for significant others who support you. If they're not supporting you and going against you by who knows what, that will hurt you, too. You want to be like someone who wants to be loved and cared about.
 
You want people to see the positive in you and not point out the negative, or you want people to see the positive in your firm, not the negative. You want people to feel like you're, they're excited, you're excited about them, you're excited about the job. And so if you come across as someone who's going to support your interviewers And not someone who's looking for support, meaning your ego needs to be popped up by salaries, by prestige, by the type of work you're getting, then you can, you'll be in trouble.
 
I can think of many cases of people destroying your career by not supporting the firm. So I had one case where an attorney was at a big firm, and he was hired to do it. He said when he was hired, he wanted to do white-collar work, and the firm said, okay, to the extent we have it, we'll put you on it.
 
So he got there, and they put him on some white-collar work and then didn't have any more. So then they said, he said, I'm here to do white-collar work. And they said they don't have any. So, to take this commercial litigation, he refused. He refused, saying, I'm here to do white-collar work.
 
And because of that mistake, the firm let him go probably after a month or so. And he did the same thing with interviews. He said I don't want to do only white-collar work. That's all I want to do. And it got, and this is someone that went to a top five law school with a perfect background.
And for the next 20 years, Morgan's a contract attorney because he's just out for himself and what he wants, and no one will hire him. So you have to go into interviews and look like you're malleable. If you need help in this other area, I'm here to do it.
 
If you need me to do this, I'm happy to do it. This is what you need. And if you don't, if you go into an interview. And you act like you will only tolerate getting certain types of work. You're not going to tolerate getting certain hours. You won't tolerate having, whatever, not having seniority on things.
 
So, what does support mean? So, I was working with a girl from Yale Law School not too long ago. She'd gone too. She worked at Sullivan and Cromwell and then left there because she took a job in Silicon Valley with a firm, and she got to that firm. They were giving her work that she thought was beneath her, meaning they were giving her responsibilities that she may have no longer had to do in promo.
 
So the same thing happened. She decided she was better than the work and refused to do work at a lower level and lost her job. Someone from Yale Law School. People don't want to hire people that won't support them. People do not want to hire anyone that makes them feel uncomfortable.
 
And so is your ability. Is going to succeed is based on how much the interviewer believes you will support them, even with clients. Just to back up a second. If you have a client, the way attorneys get clients is to pay them for things. They come in and say, " Oh, we do things this way, and we can save you money.
 
We do the work efficiently. We have all had this experience. So they come in and tell the clients that they can save money and do things in a certain way that they think have an excellent chance of winning, even if they don't do all these things to make the client.
 
Feel support. And when someone's interviewing, that's what they're looking for. They're looking for someone they feel will help them and make them look good. If they're hiring partners, they want to hire partners they believe will collaborate and do well.
 
They want to have others on their side. They want to feel like the people that they're hiring have their back. If they make mistakes, the attorney won't make them feel bad about it. All these things about having someone's back are essential. I've seen cases where someone was at the very top of their class at a top-three law school.
 
And is that a job, and they get an assignment and go and say, I'm not doing this assignment because you can do it more efficiently this way? And it's for a partner trying to get a big bill out to them. Clients then wait to do it and get fired six months into the job.
 
So this whole support is essential. And a lot of people and firms need help finding that support. People will join big law firms nationwide, and those will be immediately. They'll tune out quickly and not be fully engaged because they want to go in-house, they start searching for jobs, or they're unhappy, and then that support disappears.
 
When you're an attorney, and you're hiring people, you never know who you can trust. Attorneys will go on. It's interesting. This is just an aside. I remember this big firm that monitored all the websites people looked at. And I don't know, I don't review this website anymore, but they said that anybody that's ever spent time and above the law has never made a partner.
 
So I don't know, there's a connection. But what he was essentially saying was, and I just took that, and I don't know if it's true, but it seems weird. But the idea is that people looking for negativity, who are concerned about all this stuff, become more ego-centered where they're not necessarily for the firm.
 
I don't quite agree with his logic, but at the same time, the idea is that when you're concerned about. What other things, instead of supporting your employer, meaning that is where you don't, you stop advancing. A couple of months into my first legal job after a clerkship, and I was asked to do an assignment for this demanding partner who has since gone to prison, which is funny.
 
He quit the law firm, but I got he had to do this assignment. And and and and it didn't make any sense. I was a few months into the job, and he was very vague and cryptic about the assignment. I told a mid-level associate about this, and she told me how difficult it was to work with a partner. She told me I needed to cover my back and write down and document everything he did, and the partner could not be trusted.
 
At some point, she reached into her bag; she'd stopped by my office on the way to leaving work and showed me this list by date of all the slights, imagined slights, and the things that. Work with that she had received during her time at the firm, and she spent all this time.
 
She was a Harvard Law School graduate and accomplished on paper, but she'd written down everything wrong that had ever been said to her, every rumor, and all these things that happened to her at the firm. However, she was someone that the law firm didn't like. They didn't consider her good at the job.
 
And then a few months after this, she. I was asked to leave after making a catastrophic error in an assignment. But the assignment, but the thing was, is that people make errors all the time. So, if she had been someone who had dedicated her time and her mind to doing a good job and not making these sorts of errors, she would have probably been okay because I've seen other people make serious errors.
 
This error was just forgetting to attach a document to some sort of thing submitted to the court, and because of that, they had to fight to fix it. And but this, it's just how it is. However, the idea is that what I've witnessed time and time again when it comes to getting jobs and keeping jobs, law firms always want to avoid people who are against them.
 
I saw something else happen in a firm once. I was in an A meeting with a bunch of summer associates and attorneys and someone who was head of the pro bono committee, and he seemed like he was respected. The firm people were friendly to him and other partners, and he got up and said that our firm has the lowest pro bono hours of any firm in New York.
 
And this could be more pleasant. And there are no pro bono opportunities here. And he did this in front of people on the management committee. And then, literally during the summer, he was just, I saw him being yelled at and people being very unpleasant to him, and I'm sure that it changed the direction of his time in the firm.
 
If you feel against, if the firm feels you're against them and you're not on the team, you're not supporting each other in the team. Then, it would help if you often did better. Yeah, I will make a statement about something, but it's not necessarily a kosher thing to say.
 
Often, people in fraternities, sororities, and other groups were where you're supposed to be: you're loyal to your sisters or brothers. And that sort of thing. And that's enforced, and you're living with people.
 
Sometimes, that sort of attitude that spreads from that can have people do well because you use people who feel supported that you're my brother, my sister, all those sorts of things. People on sports teams. Those who have athletics in their background often do very well. So it's just you have to have allies.
 
People need to think that you're behind them. And that will help you do a lot. Looking back on relationships and my career, I look at most of my problems. And all sorts of other things are because people felt I didn't support them, employers may have felt I didn't support them, law firms, or the just people that I've had harmful interactions with it's generally if you look back in your interactions, it's generally because someone that you were talking to or dealing with didn't feel you supported them whether it's I remember, just peace.
 
There are so many examples; I remember having some best friends: my best friend in fourth grade and my best friend when I graduated from law school the firm after the firm; both of those people's relationships ended when they found out that I said something negative about them behind their back.
 
And when it got back to them, I lost two best friends, and I remember in fourth grade, it was challenging because not only did I lose a best friend, but this guy wanted to fight me all the time. And which wasn't pleasant, just funny in retrospect, but people take it very seriously when they find out you're talking about them or not supporting them.
 
They just don't like it. And then ruins relationships. And so you need to be very careful. One time, I was working in a country club, and it was a ballet. And I was standing next to another valet a little older than me. I think this is when I was in, I don't know, it doesn't matter when.
 
But I was talking to a senior valet, and she asked me what I thought of my boss. I didn't realize then that she was close to the boss. I told her that I had some problems with him. One of the things he did was, I remember, on the 4th of July, the club was just bursting with people, and I had hundreds of dollars in tips, and he came up to me and said, give me all the money.
 
Which I thought was pretty mean, so I talked about that, but the following day, after I said negative things about him, he called my mother and told her I was fired for talking behind his back. And so the woman went straight to him, and he let me go just because he found out I was talking negatively about him behind his back and not supporting him.
 
And interestingly enough, when you're in a law firm and gossiping, excuse me, about people, and they see, they believe you are, and they can see it. And you're just talking to people that they know are harmful. That can hurt you. And you'll be considered on the side of negative people.
 
But there, there were plenty of people. The valley job was good. Plenty of people would be hungry. Place me. And then, and I'm just, I have so many examples of this. I'll just keep telling you a few because I want you to understand how serious it is when people don't think you have their back.
 
And I'm going into some detail here because I want you to think about examples in your life and things you've done. When I was in my second law firm, I worked for a female partner. Her husband also worked at the law firm as a partner. She gave me a tough Assignment involving international law, which was about 550 million.
 
That was, I don't know, when Marcos was seized being transferred back to the Philippines or something. It was very complex. And she had been an equity partner but then had been. De-equitized and made a non-equity partner. And the law firm she was on her way out, and she was not present intellectually at the firm.
 
She was looking for positions when she got a very excellent government position as a judge. Still, she's now like a top of the, anyway, but she had little time, and the international issue I was dealing with could have been more complex. It was like the world's most complex LSAT problem.
 
And even like following the logic, every sentence was way interrelated. And so it took me over a week of constant study to understand this. And then, when I tried to explain everything to this partner, she could not understand it. It was transcribed, and it was tough for me to understand.
 
When she couldn't understand, and I got frustrated, she became angry with me and asked her husband to review the memo. And this guy was brilliant. He spent a couple of hours studying and understood what was going on. And then he and I sat down and tried to explain it to her.
 
But she also could still not understand it. She was embarrassed. And had she sat down and spent, this when I say it was complex, it was the most complex thing I've ever. And so she was embarrassed and then became angry at me. And I realized I had an enemy there, even though I'd done an excellent job.
 
No, what was funny was after I left the firm, and this how complex it was, the assignment was given to a senior associate. When they made him a partner in the firm, they talked about his work on this issue, which is basically what I did, which is very funny.
 
And it was, he was in New York. I was in Los Angeles. But when I explained to the woman's husband that she didn't understand it, I was concerned that this was a colossal error. And and and and, and, of course, that Kind of put me in a position where I was on the way out because the last thing you want to do is tell another partner that some of their partners are not smart or smart enough for taking the time.
 
And so a lot of people, yeah. Believe that you're hired for a position because you're qualified, and the employer should hire you, but it's essential to understand that just being qualified is not enough. It's the same thing with getting into schools. It's the same thing with everything.
 
Whether you're entering into a relationship with someone just because of your peers doesn't mean every interview is a process. And I just want to emphasize this where the employer is trying to figure out if you have their back and whether or not they believe you support them, or we'd be the Kind of person that undermines them.
 
I'm thinking just of an interview. I did years ago with someone who wanted to work in our company as an HR, and the guy came in and did nothing but talk about what he wanted to do, how he would increase our revenues, how he would make people happier, how he would bring in the right employees, and I couldn't believe it. I wanted to hire him on the spot. And then he said he wanted twice what I was advertising the job for. And because of how well he did in this interview. Saying that stuff, I seriously considered paying him double because no one else came in and made me feel supported.
 
Many HR people are more on the side of the employees than the management and don't have the employer's back. And so that's. The Kind of person that I hired. I hired the former HR director of a major law firm, and it was the same thing. So you have to be very careful.
 
Individuals who are interviewing you have the back. Associates also want people who will make them look good, not vice versa. So they want to feel like you'll work with them. You'll be part of the team. You'll be all these different things instead of someone who may not have their back.
So, only essential partners need to feel that way. They want to feel like you're going to support them and that you'll have their back, and you're not going to be part of these harmful and leading associates and focus more on themselves, and everyone everywhere needs to feel supported.
 
I was talking not too long ago with a partner at a huge farm, a very prestigious firm, and he gave bonuses to all the associates in his office. I think the office was 25 attorneys with three partners or something. He was in charge of handing out the bonuses, and then he gave the bonuses to everyone.
 
Half the people were mad about the bonuses and upset, and he thought he was being very generous and suddenly like they were mad and not responding to emails and stuff right away. And so the people and the other people were very happy. What he did, which I shouldn't share with you, is he stopped giving a lot of work to the people complaining about the bonuses because he felt the bonuses were excellent.
 
He felt that he should be thanked. And so he started replacing these people and hired me, so we're not doing an excellent job with the bonuses that were not. I think you understand that we're not appreciative.
 
So, a lot of people have this need for support. So this is just a quick story about a partner that one of the youngest and most successful I know grew up in a lousy neighborhood and was a gang member. As a gang member, he learned from an early age the importance of loyalty.
 
So, he was an immigrant from a foreign country. He moved into a bad neighborhood because it was all his parents could afford. I think his dad, his mom, was a maid. His dad worked in a dry cleaner. So, he worked in this gang and learned the importance of loyalty, just like when I talked about fraternities and sororities.
 
And everyone looked out for one another and protected each other, even if one of the person's people was wrong. And he learned that it's important not to undermine people. It's essential to all these sorts of things you would learn in a gang. Eventually, his parents became more successful, and they moved to a better neighborhood, and he was no longer part of this gang.
 
But I'm talking about a 13, 14-year-old part of a gang. I don't know what running drugs and, I don't know, but. But when he joined a law firm, he brought in that same level of commitment and did well. He learned not to fight about who got credit for bringing business.
 
He never made a big deal about that. And he learned not to. Be on the side to act like a partner, trying to get them the most money and all this stuff. He just was a team player. And he knew that if he started playing that game of being out for himself, it would eventually turn on him.
 
And it does it; if you don't, if you don't support the people that you're working for, eventually you'll be. They'll get you. So, he became happy to share origination credit. He did everything he could to see his client's point of view and have their back. So, he would step in and do things behind the scenes to help them.
 
And because he did that, the clients would give him more work. It wouldn't pay; he didn't even push back when he raised his rates. So, when you're interviewing, this is precisely what employers are trying to do. They're trying to figure it out. If you're going to support them, partners are trying to figure that out.
 
They're trying to figure out if you're interviewing as a partner. They're trying to figure out if you're interviewing as an associate. And this is what everybody wants. It's what you want. You want to be spending your time with people who support you. And when you learn, when you learn.
 
To see things from the interviewer's perspective and give them the impression that you'll protect them and see the world from their perspective, they will want to hire you. They can't help that. They want to believe you support them. So years ago, I interviewed someone I was working for, a federal judge, and they, and this judge, had the clerks decide who to interview.
 
So, we interviewed someone who was a top choice before the interview. This person had gone to an outstanding law school. They had excellent grades. They worked as a summer associate in a big firm and maybe did some government work before that. So, they were familiar with the government.
 
And the person was interviewing exceptionally well. And, at that time, there wasn't a lot of stuff online, but there were printed books of reviews about different judges and what clients had said. A few of the reviews of the judge were less than favorable, primarily because he was a Republican and a highly democratic area.
 
It doesn't matter, but. And anyone that's in the public limelight, myself, anyone that people, you know, that people know who they are in, in a different area, meaning, a judge is known for being a judge, he's not known for being, Anything else but that, me too and other attorneys and politicians. Still, all these people will have negative things.
 
People don't get to power without people saying negative things about them and attacking them. Look at Trump, look at Biden. All these people are constantly coming after politicians, which is how it works when you're influential. And that's because when you're influential, you say things.
 
You challenge others' self-worth, you upset the status quo, and you often make enemies because you take sides for specific groups and that threatens other groups; so whatever the reason, every influential person has terrible things written about them because they're going to upset someone, and so this particular guy that was interviewing from the judge asked me about these negative comments about the judge and how I, what I thought about them and I just offended the judge immediately.
 
And then I informed the judge about this, and it was interesting. When I walked into his office, he was smiling and in a perfect mood. And then when he heard that, his whole demeanor, like his face, said, Can this whole demeanor change? And he wasn't happy. And so the person, of course, didn't get the job.
 
The question showed that he could commit to the judge's point of view. Years ago, I was interviewing this awesome guy. He had an MBA from Stanford and had excellent, exciting qualifications. He'd gone to Phillips Andover for high school and then Harvard.
 
I was interviewing him, and I had a former recruiter who became a competitor going on all these websites and writing nasty things about me. And most of them were not true. Some of them were, he said I didn't get along with my dad. He brought up this lousy thing, and this guy had read that.
 
And I brought up, did you see any of this? Cause it was coming up when people, and this is 15 years ago, when people search my name, he's yeah, I don't believe in that nonsense. And he just blew it off. And so I liked him, so I made him an offer. He didn't accept because he got a significant private equity firm job. I'll put it into one or an investment banking firm.
 
But, if you ask questions about negative things, people feel unsupported. And when I interview people I don't think will defend me and will be a potential problem, I'm not interested in talking to them anymore.
 
And when people don't show that alliance. It could be more helpful. And everyone wants to have people close to them that they can trust. It's tough. Look at all the people who undermine politicians. Look at all the people: whistleblowers, people who go to the press, and people who sue employers.
And this is scary for employers. They want to eliminate it. People that they think have a chip on their shoulder or this is what employers are looking for. They need to feel supported. And again, I'm spending a lot of time on this because of its importance. It will change your career.
 
If you understand this, just, it really will. And many of the people I've interviewed in the past just come in and look like they're going to support you. And I've interviewed people like one person. I interviewed him with a business plan for the company, and then he told me what he just found publicly.
 
And then, I made him an offer because he was just helping another person I interviewed. It was exciting. It wasn't even that important of a job. It was something that, You know, maybe, I don't know. It was an hourly position, and it didn't have, I mean, it wasn't a lot, but it was an excellent job because it was the Kind of thing the sky wanted to do.
 
But he came in for the interview and had read. And he wasn't an attorney. He'd read many articles, like on my blog and BCG. And I couldn't believe it. I was like, wow, this guy's reading and studying all this stuff. And he said I was underutilizing the things I wrote, and obviously, I made him an offer.
 
I was like, wow, this guy loves me. Of course, he was great. And people who show up for interviews and smile and talk about how much they respect the firm or the company and make the interviewers feel essential. All that stuff is important. And if the interviewer thinks you'd like them and they believe they can trust you, they will want to give you a position.
 
They're just, that's how it is. So you have to, that's just, these are the people we like. We like people that like us. And we don't like people who don't like us. And you have to make people feel that way. Most of the time, when you go out in interviews, and you don't do this and ask questions, you feel you need to be more enthusiastic.
 
You don't seem like you'll have someone's back. You won't get the job, but if you do this, you will get the job. And why do I say this? And, like, how do I? How could I possibly know all this? I know this because I talk to people all the time who get every job they've ever walked into and applied to, meaning if you give me an interview, I will get the job.
 
And they're right. But this is what they do. This is their secret. So, if you're going out on interviews and not getting jobs, this is what you must do right. Now, there are other things you're not doing right that I'll talk about. This is the most important thing; you're only doing this if you get positions. You need to connect with the person, you need to be likable, and you need to find reasons to like the interviewer.
 
When I started recruiting, I did this thing where I would meditate. Every day, I think about how much I liked the people in law firms recruiting and interviewing my candidates. And that's one of the best things I did. So, when I talked to the law firms, they felt this guy loved us.
He connects with us. He thinks we're a big deal. And that's just how it works. And so, every interviewer wants people who will see their point of view and make them feel important. That's precisely what I did with the law firms. And it was incredible. It worked incredibly well.
 
Thinking about why I like them, what was good about them, and why they're good, all these things. And that's what the employer needs. The employer needs signals that show that. And they don't want to hire people who don't like them, aren't impressed with them, and just need people to support them.
 
Just a few things. People are tribal animals. It's in our DNA. It was when we had an agrarian society where people would have farms and things. People just lived in small groups, hunted together, and had, and that's still in our mean groups of 30 to 60 people.
 
I remember studying this and anthropology. I'm not saying that I understand it perfectly, but it's the idea that people are ingrained to have tribes, and to be in that would be in tribes that support them. When you have things people identify with, like Living in the same area, knowing certain people, having gone to certain schools, having specific interests, and having certain backgrounds, these are all identifiers that people look for when they interview people. What do you have in common with me?
 
What, how can I trust you? What can I do? I've seen this multiple times. I've seen people walk into an Interview and see a picture of some weird sport like bocce ball or something. And the person says, wow, I love bocce ball too. And I love this, and they connect on that. And there's hiring because the person feels like they know them.
 
The person walks into an interview, and they both don't know. They both were in the same club in college. All these sorts of things help. And so the more you can identify with your interviewer and find commonalities, like you're part of the same tribe, the more the interviewer will like you.
 
And this is what groups of people do. Law firms. Support their clients and their groups. Law firm companies come together on a mission. It's Google, and we do search engines or whatever. And so people come together as groups because that's why groups exist. They exist because people want to feel supported by other people.
 
And early in my career, I'd watched I, the first person, one person I interviewed was a bookkeeper. And so I always noticed who are the most successful entrepreneurs. This is when I was young. They always had good bookkeepers close to them.
 
And those bookkeepers had worked for them for a long time. And I didn't understand this, however. I realized that this must be very important, too, and there needs to be a level of trust between the bookkeeper. And that's why I realized how important it was.
 
I prioritized that. And then I ultimately hired someone who'd worked for 20 years. At the, for the previous employer for 20 years before the employer sold their business. And what you can see is very interesting when you see people staying in the same position for an extended period.
 
Generally, the reason for that is the person believes they have their back. And they and each person, but the employer has the back of the person working for them. The person working for them has a lot. So, many times, people, and I'm not criticizing this because I'm a recruiter, and I move people between firms.
 
But what happens a lot is. People that move firms a lot and jobs a lot. It's often a sign that wherever they go, they're not loyal and that they don't have their employers back. And so people in business and law firms will look at people who move a lot differently from the Kind of person who will support them.
 
So you need to come into interviews, and you need to convince people that this is the Kind of environment where you would facilitate And where people would feel supported by you and because of whatever's happened, you've arrived at this place. And how does that work? I joined this group. I wasn't a good fit for it because of this. I, but I learned this about myself, and I joined this firm and learned this about myself.
 
And this is the accumulation of all my experience I've wanted in a place like this. When I hired this bookkeeper, she came in; she smiled, was happy, talked about her previous boss, how she had his back, and acted like she'd do the same for me. And I hired her, and then she worked for me for over a decade because she had my back.
 
And what's interesting about her is I let her go when she didn't have my back, so what she had done. She had hired this huge accounting department, not huge, but like four or five people to help her. And then we went into a recession, and like 2008, we only had a few people working there.
 
So, there were certain people that I needed to let go. And when that happened, she refused. So she just kept this. All these people were unneeded, and she had changed her law alliance, not towards me, but to someone else. And so that was the problem. So, if someone has our back, we want to keep them around.
 
We want to hire them. We want to do this as well as you can. And people lose their jobs when law firms believe they have no back. And so this is, getting hired, really the employer needs to believe you have their back. And they. They're just looking for these kinds of clues.
 
You're saying like, will this person talk negatively about me? No, there's a firm, I shouldn't even, I'm not going to say the firm's name, but there's this giant firm world, mega-firm based in New York. Someone went above the law and wrote a comment that was pretty sick.
 
 
It was not sick, but a long comment about how damaging the firm was and its problems, and there was no way to identify based on what the person wrote who it was. So they, the firm, just pulled up records of all the people that had been Bob, the law, or whatever, whenever that was time-stamped or whenever the comment came, they narrowed it down to a couple of people and discovered who wrote the comment, and they just fired them.
 
It was like a six-year attorney. So people don't like it when you talk negative about them. People don't like it. People don't like it when you're unhappy with your compensation or hours. You'll leave immediately when you look like someone who won't stick around and if the firm isn't a good fit.
 
And you need to understand how things work. Society is incredibly polarizing. Just understand how different political parties work and how they're angry with each other, how unions are against companies, how companies, and all this happens.
 
People, they're rich and poor, fighting people that are Democrat and Republican. You need to hire people that make you feel safe. Again, I won't talk about this anymore because I've droned on for a long time. Still, it would be best if you made sure that whoever you're interviewing with feels supported, feels like you're on their side, and that you're very safe for them to hire because you're going to do a great job and you're going to be on their side.
 
If you, the second you send out clues that you're not, the second you're not, that's when you're not hired. The second you send clues to your current job that you're not on their side, you stop getting hired. If they find out you're interviewing elsewhere, law firms often take that as a harmful threat.
 
So you just have to be very careful about this. It would help if you wrote this down, looked at it, and made my employer and interviewer feel supported. And this is one of the most essential rules. Make my clients feel supported for being successful in the practice of law.
 
You cannot ignore this rule. If you do, you're going to have a hard time. You're going to have a challenging career. If you follow it, you won't advance or be in a place where you can be with your career. So this is another thing that's related. But people hire people who want the job and want to work there.
 
They want to feel like this is essential to you. If you feel that way, they feel like their brand is respected. And I. When I was deciding where I wanted to work as an attorney, I took questions; by the way, this was the first thing, and these other ones when the presentation was done, which these next three are a lot faster or for I was working after I'd work for a judge and two law firms.
 
I was still at the second one. I was trying to decide whether I wanted to practice law anymore, and I went out and started interviewing with law firms. I certainly only got a position in some law firms I interviewed. My batting average was meager. I usually was able to get screening interviews.
 
And then I was also able to take those and then put those in and get those second-round interviews. But at this point, I didn't want to practice law anymore. I was just going to interviews because I quit the firm, and they told me to stay around for three months and apply for other jobs.
 
And that would help me. However, I shouldn't have applied when I was unemployed. I was planning on doing something else. I started a solo practice because I had clients. Still, the point is that most of the firms I interviewed with weren't interested in hiring me because I didn't come across as enthusiastic and wanted the job.
 
I was interviewing with Simpson Thatcher in New York for a position in their Los Angeles office. And then there was a very well-known attorney, and his name was Barry Ostroger. He's now a judge but was one of the country's most-known insurance coverage attorneys. And I interviewed with him, and he said he could tell I didn't want the job, but he wanted to get a few.
 
He just brought me into his office when I was three or 400 years in. And because the firm wanted to hire me, they said, you're hired; just go out to New York and meet a few people, and then it's a done deal. And he said he could tell I didn't want the job. And so I didn't get this job at the firm.
 
And that happened because he could, he was brilliant, and he could tell that. And so he didn't want to hire me. And getting a job is very challenging if you don't want it. Law firms can pick up on something if you want something else. And if you think that way, you won't get the job.
 
I talk too much about my family, but my father was in the CIA. He said one of the first things he learned when he was a young CIA person is he used to go in this kind of weird way where they would, I think, in Switzerland, and he would just go to these different doctors. When he would get in there, there would be an exam room, and that would be where the person was waiting.
 
It's funny. I don't know why it worked that way back then, but he would tell stories about that. And anyway, he was, he went into some one of these meetings with one of his handlers, and he started saying something negative about someone that he was supposed to get close to to get information.
 
And. Yeah. And then the handler said something that I've always remembered. He said, don't think about it, or you'll show it. If you think something negative about a firm, they will pick up on it. If you think something positive, then they'll pick up on it. But you can't think negatively about whoever you're interviewing with.
 
 
You may think, oh, the attorneys aren't qualified, the work doesn't look good, or, oh, you can't think of those. But good law firms can tell if you don't want the job. And they can tell if you left to go in the house. They can tell that your reasons for leaving firms aren't good.
 
They can change, tell if you take, change practice areas. Suppose you need to fill in your resume. You do other things that may give signals you want to avoid working there. And sometimes, people show up for interviews and are indifferent to their work. So what does that mean? By the way, the best attorneys will have a lot of enthusiasm and talk about their practice area.
 
They'll have deep insight into it. I remember being in a room with this one law firm, and all I could talk about was how excited I was about litigation, how I liked this and that, and this and that. And how it read these form files and they were like all over it. They offered me an interview. This is 1 of the firms where I was not interested in practicing law, but I went and just talked about all this, and it works.
 
So this is all-important. You have to have a. You have to look like you're very committed to the work. You have to talk about how you want to work in a law firm, how you have good feelings about the law firm, and how working there would be great for you. And this is even if, deep down, you won't because you always want to get the job.
 
And you have to come across that way. And if you do, you will get the position. And when I interview people, I always look for that. I had an instance the other day where I interviewed and was actually recruiting a recruiter to work here.
 
And when I recruited the recruiter, she was talking about. The first call I had with her was weird. It was like the first day I'd recruited her and her husband. Her email had been hacked or something. So she thought maybe I was part of this act. She was weird about it.
 
And then, after the interview, her husband texted me and said, I'm sorry. It's like she was weird because her thing was hacked. And I told her that, talking to you, you were probably this and that, and she wants the job. And so I love that. It's because she wanted the job.
 
She knew about our company. She was excited. She even had her husband step in and apologize, but she didn't sound enthusiastic on her first day. It was fun. But I thought, wow, that person must want the job. So, this is about interviewing someone for a clerical position.
 
A woman was working for me to do that. She was asked about some aspects of her experience. And when that happened, she said you can see that on my resume. You don't need to ask me if you can; it's on my resume. And, of course, this person didn't want the job. If people act like that, then you do.
 
I want to avoid hiring them. And at our company, when people apply, it's tough to be a recruiter at FRMU. If you get a hundred applications, we might interview one. Sometimes it's a lot higher than that. This is. It's probably slightly exaggerated because it's not always that number.
 
It could be five. But, when I interview people, I only hire a few of them. And I don't hire people because they need to take time to study our company and me and that sort of thing. And so they come in, and they just. Ask obvious questions. So this is the same thing you should do with an employer.
 
When you go into an interview, you should know everything you can about that employer, and you don't have to tell them you read their website, but you can say, yes, I'm aware of that. And this is what I like about it. And this is interesting. And there are 13 people in your. This practice area that I'm in are you planning on hiring more?
 
What are those sorts of things? And if you show up knowing what the employer does, it makes it look like you want the job more. And these are people that do well. It's like this with all employers, and When you show up for interviews, you must be prepared and know about the employer. It would be best to make the employer feel like everything they're doing is exciting.
 
And it would help if you meant it. This means that a lot of times, people will. Go into interviews, and they'll be like, yes, I like that, but they need to connect. They're not. You don't believe them. So, you need to be coming across as believable and interested in the employer, and the employer needs to believe it.
 
It's not just because you want a high salary. Or the firm's procedures, or you need a new job because something special and unique about the employer makes them feel like you like them. And I can't emphasize this enough. Make the employer feel like you think they're special.
 
Make it believe in the employer. Think about, meditate before you go in, and think about why you want the job. And even if it's because you need a job. You don't, you're unemployed. Just think about how I connect with this person. How do I have a good experience with them?
 
How do I make them like me? How do I make them feel like there's someone I want to be there, who wants to be there? My mom likes to tell the story. She's told it a bunch of times. But it was when I was younger she took me to eventually agree that she had been begging for months to let me get a dog.
 
We went to a house With a large litter of 10 or 12 puppies. They all looked the same, but one of the puppies approached me and wouldn't stop kissing me and jumping on my lap while the others were just wandering around. And I chose that puppy. And basically, what she said.
You chose the person that liked you. That's how you made the decision.
 
And that's the same thing with employers. It's the same thing with everyone. We choose who we like and who likes us. And the people that like us are the ones we reciprocate and like back. So I just want everyone to understand.
 
How important the statement is because if someone likes you, then they're much more likely to like them back. So it would be best to consider how you like this employer. What should I do? How do I make them feel? I like them. How do I make the person talk? You know that I make them feel like I want to work there, and I want them, and people understand that you'll do much better.
 
This thing happened to me in my first year of law school. I was single, and one day, this girl walked up to me and was attractive to me. She told me that she'd been staring at me, smiling at me, and seeing me at all these places, grocery stores, parties, and things for a long time and that other guys came up and talked to her.
 
I have yet to speak with her. And she told me all this, said I'd walked by, ignored her all this time, and didn't notice her. And this girl was My type. Just completely. And when she settled this stuff, I was flattered. So she walked up and said, I like you.
 
I've been watching you for a long time. If you've been ignoring me. I'm desirable. Other people have done this. And then she said, can I buy you a beer? And I was like, all so all this stuff was very flattering to me, and then it was fun.
 
Like she had this nice sports car, and we went out for a drive like the same night we met and just a lot of great chemistry and but someone all because the person said that she walked up and said she liked me and I don't know what's proper for everyone to do, but it worked for me.
 
And so, just to give you a cap about how effective that was. Less than six months later, we were living together. And then, a few years after that, we were married. And all this happened because she came up and said, " I think you're fantastic. And flat and that sort of thing.
 
So employers are like this too. They will like you back when you generally like an employer and want to work for them. And it's the same thing. You could end up a partner there. You can spend your entire career there. And that enthusiasm makes you rise above the crowd of other applicants.
 
And if you know about the employer, Who they are, what they stand for. They're much more likely to hire than if we do not. And so it's the same thing with relationships. If someone likes us, they make us feel supported. You're much more likely to reciprocate if they want to be in a relationship.
 
And then if people expressed doubts and now there are some personalities where that's actually. They like that and then, but if you're psychologically healthy and people help with all these doubts about you and negatives, and they're not entirely for you, then you're probably not going to like them, and you're going to avoid them.
 
Relationships go bad when with significant others; when one side stops believing in the other, that's just how it works. And break up often. When an interview is when you're interviewing with legal employers, you need to show the employer that you're interested in them, that you want the job, you need to prepare you need to look the part, you need to do everything you can to try to figure out, what the culture's beforehand and try to figure out how you can do that.
 
And it would help if you were enthusiastic and. And realize that that all employers, by the way, are very insecure. They will be insecure about interviewing you if they don't think you'll take the job because you're at a more prestigious firm. They're often insecure about.
 
How others perceive them compared to other firms:
 

• They're sometimes insecure about the quality of the attorney.
• They're insecure about how much they pay if they don't pay a lot.
• They're insecure about negative news stories that have come on.
• They're negative.
• They're insecure about how nice they are. All employers are insecure, and a lot of them, the most potent firms, don't need a lot of validation, but when you come in when you validate a firm, you make them feel like there's something special and you have reasons for doing so, they're much more likely to hire you.

 
And it's the same thing with you. When people see the best in you and want a relationship with you, and if they're genuine, you're more likely to want them. I've been in these relationships before where the person's just, yeah, I like you, you like me, it's great.
 
And, but it's just superficial. And you don't want that. You want people to really. Be interested in yourself; you will be much better off if you do that. I've counter-attorneys all the time that can work anywhere.
 
They have large books of business. They graduated from the best law school. They have an outstanding experience. And these types of attorneys can always get interviews. But what they do a lot of times. With all this is, they show up, act not entirely interested in the firm, and don't connect with the firm.
 
And these people do not get hired. And it happens all the time. I can think of several examples of outstanding attorneys that had built up. Built books of business and all this stuff, but when they go into the interview, they're just maybe this was beneath me, or I will need more money if they just come in with this attitude.
 
I've got one partner right now who started his career, I think Kravath, and went to a giant firm, and after eight or nine years of Kravath and he's been on 10, he Comes in and acts like he's better than the firm. It's not, and it's what you can do for me.
 
And everyone's like nothing because you're not interested in us. You just want to come across as someone who wants the job. Just think about you, the people you've dealt with, and your career in life. Are you interested in yourself and comparing that with those who aren't? How does that make you feel? How can you choose friends?
 
The friends are based on a lot of your friendships are based on the kind of people that like you, that you feel have your back, that are all that sort of stuff. And so this is how you need to act. It would help if you acted like you wanted to work there. Make people feel that when they interview you because there's no reason for them to hire you if you don't.
 
They want to, they're not going to like you as much. And so this is the way to get jobs. It's the way to get clients. It's the way to excel. So this is the other thing. This one is less important than the others, but the employers always ask If you'll do the job and how they want it done.
 
Different people have different expectations. Sometimes, they want to do things in a certain way. Other times, they don't. I had this exciting thing happen. This was a while ago. I had this firm, this in-house job I was recruiting for in Louisiana, and I only did a few in-house placements, but this was interesting.
 
They were looking for an in-house counsel to handle, I think, patent litigation cases they were involved in or something. And they had a bunch of them, and they wanted to pay the person, I don't know, 300 000 a year or something to do this. So they didn't have to pay law firms millions of dollars a year.
 
And I got all these applications. I got them from partners that Amlaw went under law firms and all these people. And then I had one application from this guy that was in Illinois. Unemployed and had worked at a big firm before. So what happened is I sent the firm these highly qualified applications.
 
But each said, Yes, we will be your in-house attorney. And these are people who are making over a million dollars a year. A lot of them are these partners, and you may be too. And we're just interested in working in-house and willing to take a pay cut. But their idea was.
           
You know that I'll come in. I'll hire a bunch of attorneys to help me. I'll manage the cases. This is how they all work, man. This person that was hiring was like no way. I want people to prosecute these so we can pay 300,000 a year for you. And maybe to prosecute these and maybe a couple 100,000 for a couple of people to help you.
 
This is what the law firm that company wanted. So, no one that was interviewing for this job was doing that. I sent this, And the first thing they did was they did phone interviews of the so these interviews happened over the phone with these big-time attorneys. And this is basically how they came across.
 
And then the firm was like, send me some more people. So I just threw in the guy in Illinois because I thought he was excellent. And so they had four or five more interviews scheduled. And then, the first interview was with the guy and Illinois, and it was a phone interview, but he said, I want to fly out and interview for this.
 
Can I meet you in person? Or did he tell me that I met them in person? And then the guy that was hiring and the company. So yeah, hell yeah. You can. So he flew down to Louisiana from Chicago. And went in, and within a half hour, the guy called me for maybe a half hour, like an hour, and said, we're giving this guy the job.
 
He knows exactly what we want. He's going to do it. And he is happy to prosecute the cases. He doesn't think we need to hire people. So, he was doing precisely what the firm wanted. So they're taking someone unemployed that is older. So he was, I think, in his late fifties, which is pretty old for an attorney, and they hired him, and they said, I'm not going to hire, I don't want to cancel all the interviews.
 
This guy's great. And they hired him. So it's someone who did the job how they wanted it done. And other people will come in and have all these preconceptions and don't. Tell the employer that they'll do things the way they want to. They'll say, Oh, this could, maybe this should be done differently.
 
Maybe this, maybe that. So, attorneys, law students, and others will often blow this by limiting how they will not work and how they'll do different things. In the interviews, they just say, I want to do things this way, or I want to, I. I am only willing to work these hours.
 
I want Wednesdays off, all these sorts of things. They'll come in, and they'll say, and they won't get the job. I want to work remotely. I want to, and these things just get you dead; you're dead in the water. You have to come in and act like you will do what the employer wants.
 
And you have to, you can't. You can't do this. Again, interviews go sideways because people say, I'm not willing to take depositions at this point in my career. I prefer to work remotely. I prefer to work on this sort of case. I prefer all these sorts of things.
 
And they're just when you say this stuff; you're just basically saying, Hey, disqualify me from the job because the law firm knows that if you have all these expectations and you have all these things you want to say, they know that it's just going to get worse. They're not going to have control over you, and you're going to be rogue.
 
And that's going to hurt you. So this is how it works. And now, if law firm partners work in the office, not all do. Indeed, many of them are remote these days, but if you're working for someone in the office. Working in the office. I would say you have to, too, because the partners want to be able to stop by and talk to you.
 
They want to feel important that they have these subordinates. They want to be able to give feedback and all those sorts of things. And it's just, that's what a lot of partners want. Just be like, I have no problem being in the office. I'll do whatever you need.
 
I'm a team player, all those sorts of things. And this is what people in power want: people to support them. They want them to do the job how they want it done. And they, it's the same thing. What is the family for a family's place where you return at night?
 
Where you support your kids or hope that they support you, where you support your significant other, where you have parents that support you, they've got your back. Look at just look at millions of examples. Look at Joe Biden and his and his son Hunter.
 
Look at some of the stuff Hunter's done, which is insane. The pictures and the, it's crazy, but he still supports his son, which is what families do. Families, and he supports it even though he's arguably one of the more critical people in the world.
 
He's just going right to this important point: our families are supposed to support us. We call our families when we have trouble. We, they support us. We're always there for them. And so it's the same thing with your work. People, they want your work. People need to feel supported. I'm sorry to keep coming back to this.
 
But families supporting how you do things is the important point. And a lot of times. When people go into interviews, they'll talk about how they want this day off. They'll talk about what they want. And so all the law firms are comparing you to others they're interviewing with that may not have, may not, may do the work the way they want it done.
 
And there's nothing wrong with this: you are entitled to these requirements. But just remember that if you have these requirements and others don't, the law firm is more likely to hire those who don't have those requirements. So, it's FaceTime setting limits for your availability.
 
Requesting all sorts of things. If you do that, the law firm may want that. And if you don't do it, they will hire someone that does. And then, often, attorneys will go into interviews and say how the work should be performed.
 
And and. And this is the example that I gave you earlier. But, the law firms, this is what they want. They want people who will do the job and how the law firm wants it done. And this is a tough job because there are just many things.
 
When I hire recruiters, recruiters often come in, and I have this problem often. I tend to hire people who have yet to be recruiters because people will come into our company, and they will think they know how to do everything, and yet all these things happen: you have to review jobs each morning, and you have to research employers.
 
It would be best to position people looking for jobs in specific ways. You need to understand, like, how to do the job. And so people will come in, and we'll just be like, I know how to do it. I don't need to learn anything. And those people are just blown out of the water. It's also like that with a lot of the most prestigious firms.
 
Like Cravath, Wachtell, Sullivan, and Cromwell, these firms typically only hire from their summer programs because they want people to do the work they want done. They don't want to have to train people to do things. People come in, and the law firms want people to do the work the way they want.
 
And this is just an example. We've never hired someone with experience working as a legal recruiter elsewhere. That's not to say we never will, but there are only a few times when we've done it, and we have. It's rarely worked because the people do the work the way they want to, and that's incompatible with how we work.
 
So those people do poorly. And the one that thrives are the ones without experience. And willing to do the job we need the way we need it done. And legal employers are the same way. They want to hire people to do things their way rather than set in their ways or be highly opinionated about how they're doing the work.
 
Just think about it. This is important. Now, if you don't look like you're going to follow directions, you have your own opinions. And you have limits for the type of work you will do. That contradicts what the employer wants, and they don't hire you.
 
This is by the way when I talk to employers after interviews. This is something they bring up all the time. They bring up that the people that they're, you know, working for, I mean they bring up that, the interviewers, said these sorts of things and just, you know, saying things like they hate going and client dinners.
 
They don't want to travel. They want to spend their time on something other than committees. They have all sorts of things they want to leave by the time, whether this training time and so when you talk about this the law firm will just qualify you. They want what they want.
 
And I. And I hate to keep talking about this, but it's imperative that they want people that are soldiers. So, what is a soldier? You give a soldier an order, and you're like, okay, just run into this. These are all the bullets that are coming. Do what we ask you, and don't question it.
 
This is what soldiers do. A soldier's job is not to debate with the general or the. Colonel or is asking them to do. It's just to do what they want. And so if you don't and you show up and act like you're not going to be a soldier, then the law firm will not hire you.
 
If you talk about how you weren't a soldier and running into battle and following orders in your last job, the firm won't hire you. So just keep this all in mind. You have to, and you can't talk about anything that makes it look like you're not going to follow directions and do things the way the law firm wants it done.
 
It's as simple as that. And the better you do that, the more likely you will get the job. This is just another one. There are two more of these. These are pretty quick. The last two, but the fourth one is, will this attorney make us look good? And do they represent how we want to see ourselves?
 
All that means you can get in the door with most employers if your resume is good. But if you don't think you're not making the employer look good in the way they want to see themselves, they won't be hiring you. So what does that mean? It means how you dress, speak, carry yourself, and other traits that reflect whether you'll make the employer look good or not.
 
Those are important. Sometimes, people show up for interviews. They may act awkwardly, not make eye contact, speak inappropriately, have clammy handshakes, make all sorts of mistakes, and the employer doesn't feel like they're going to make them look good. So that means things like how you dress, how you're groomed, how you're, and then the same thing with the Zoom conversation, how you present yourself, how you look at the camera, all those sorts of things.
 
And so if you're not doing this, the employer will conclude that you'd also act this way with clients. I remember interviewing someone; this is funny but an extreme example. Someone with those incredible on paper, but when they came into the interview after I'd had a phone interview, they smelled like smoke so severely that my eyes were watering.
 
And then the person was also coughing up phlegm as an older attorney during the meeting. And, of course, I didn't hire her. I don't want to represent that person in the market. I've also interviewed other people for physicians, and I have nothing against people with tattoos. Still, I interviewed someone with tattoos, starting at their arms and going up there and then up to their chin, and that was scary, not that I disliked that.
 
There's nothing wrong with that, but. I didn't know. I don't think that would be a good thing for our company. And then I had another thing happen that I remember it's funny, but I interviewed someone for a highly qualified person for a job. He'd gone to Columbia.
 
Law school and just had all these great things. And then, before the interview, he asked to use a bathroom in my office that everyone shared. And I thought this interview went very well. But after he left, I walked into the office and noticed he'd peed all over the toilet seat, which I believed was him because of his attitude.
 
And I didn't hire him because he was very confident and just, but a little bit, and then how you talk about your confidence and your mannerisms and how you look and act like the people there and seem to share their interests and things is essential.
I know this is an exciting story. I interviewed a guy once in his law school class. He was from a good law school. And he was at an outstanding firm, and he needed a job. And his hair was down to his hips. He had the, meaning his buttocks.
 
And he had all these things about how he wouldn't cut it. And so he was getting interviews at all these prestigious law firms. They certainly weren't saying anything about his hair. But the law firms don't like it. And he, of course, didn't get hired. He came, he was to the point where he was very depressed, he was acting crazy like he divorced his wife because she was, just all this stuff and because he was so insistent on having this haircut, not cutting his hair. And this stuff happens. If the law firm, if you come into a law firm and you and you're not at, you don't look appropriate, then law firms will be very nervous.
 
I had one woman that. Was, would wear a dog collar in interviews. Again, I'm not judging that, but this stuff often only works in law firms. A year ago, I was Interviewing a very highly qualified attorney for an attorney position.
 
When I spoke to this guy, he talked about how depressed he was and how his father had committed suicide at his age. And actually, I was interviewing him. I was interviewing him for law firms anyway, but he went on with his interviews, and he came across as deficient in energy and sad because he was just very depressed.
 
And so he should have taken care of that. Before he started interviewing, you could fix that with therapy or medication, but he just kept doing that. So you're a representative of a law firm, and the law firm needs to reflect how it sees and wants to see itself, and different law firms have different characteristics of people.
 
But it would help if you were confident. You need to look at the part as much as you can address the part. And it would help if you understood what the attorneys are like before interviewing. So you can go to particular law firms' websites and see that every bunch of them are members of conservative groups or liberal groups or like sports or, and you can get a sense of how the law firm people are.
 
And then and then, go from there, but you should also think about what you would want for an attorney representing you. So, if you had an attorney, what would you expect them to be if you needed an attorney? Like, what, who, if you were hiring someone, what would you think? How would you want them to look?
 
I remember once I was interviewing, or I had a friend who was interviewing with headhunters in New York, or was, had a headhunter. He went into the headhunter's office, and the headhunter was incredibly well dressed, and his teeth were shiny white, and he had a great haircut, and that's all the guy we're talking about, is this guy's so put together he's incredible, and I like him.
 
When I was a Summer associate, there was a partner in my firm who had the most significant book of business. And the partner used to dress incredibly well and stand himself up in a groomed suntan, I don't know, but healthy. And he used to tell the associates that when, if you're charging over a thousand dollars an hour, you need to walk into interviews, and you need to walk into your client's office and be like the most put together and confident person in the room.
 
And I think that's true. So you just need to act and look at the part you need to suppress to some extent your individuality. Such things like, going into, I'm, I had a woman that would go into interviews with nose rings, and that doesn't help a lot of places. Now, it's not all places, but.
 
It doesn't help. Another woman had several rings on her ear. Another woman that, you know, and men too, just different things. It would help if you were very careful. There was one firm in Los Angeles where I used to work, Quinn Emanuel, and there was no dress code at this firm.
 
People would wear suits when they went into court or met with clients, but there was no dress code when working at the firm. Every year, when they would interview summer associates, new people would do things like show up in shorts and how the law firm let them dress. Those people would not get interviews because the law firm felt it was disrespectful and other things.
So you have to be careful. And your interviewers will also look up your social media profiles.
 
They're going to look up how you portray yourself on LinkedIn, how you prepare yourself on Facebook, how you portray yourself on Instagram. They're going to look all this up. And they're going to say, does this person look clean?
 
Is this the kind of person if our client looks them up? What is the client going to think? So if you have all these pictures of doing bong shots and standing on your head, drinking beer, and just acting crazy, then obviously, they're not going to hire you. But people make this mistake all the time.
 
So, it would be best to be very careful of how you portray yourself. The law firms know the clients are also going to look like that. And they, extreme politics and other things. You just need to be very careful and look at how the law firm ultimately represents you.
 
And then this is the final one. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it, and then we'll... Take a quick break and questions, but the fifth one is do I like this attorney more than the other people I'm interviewing? Then, you have to stick out. You have to be the most likable, and sometimes you're interviewing multiple people for the same position, and law firms will often make this determination based on how well you've done the other four.
 
So, if you look like you have their back, if you look like you're interested in the position, you want the position, all those are the reasons, then they're more likely to hire you, regardless of the time. You go into the interview; the employer has mostly made up their mind about the type of person they want to hire, and if you're not that person, you need to be likable. Likability often needs to be within your control.
 
So one of the rules I've heard a lot, and I just repeat, is that one-third of the people we meet automatically will not like us. One-third will not care either way. And the other third will like this. Often, they make those conclusions just based on seeing you and not even knowing they make it subconsciously.
 
And and but you have to. Look at the most likable person and realize that everyone's competing to be liked. And understanding how to be likable is essential that you have to: likable people do not brag; likable people act like they're not better than others.
 
Likable people, it's exciting. Like when I meet people that are, I sometimes meet wealthy people. Hundreds of millions of dollars, and they look like they're, it's I'm getting by, I'm doing the best I can.
They often drive old cars, and sometimes, because they want to, they don't want to draw attention and make people not like them. Same thing with people. They go to Harvard often, let's say when I was in school in the East, so people don't want to intimidate others.
 
They want them to, and they want to be likable. So, being understated, acting like you will only try to get credit for some things. A lot of people will brag about their resumes. So they'll say things like I was doing a resume workshop yesterday. Oh, and by the way, I do them every week. So, if you're a candidate, you should always get emails about it.
 
But I was doing a resume workshop yesterday, and this one resume, the person was saying, I was selected among six people to do this job. I was in the top 10% of this firm, I got these fabulous reviews. And so that person was not likable, and they needed to get interviews. And it was basically because.
 
They were just telling everyone how great they are compared to others, and people don't like that. People don't like others who talk too much about their achievements on their resume or in person. The best resumes, by the way, are, I was talking to this woman this morning that she went to Yale College and was top of her class and went to Harvard Law School and had worked at two outstanding firms.
 
And it was incredibly likable. She was just thankful I was calling her. And even on her resume, even though all these great things happen, there was no bragging. I was just like, I'm doing this and doing this. And this is why people like people like people that are human as well.
 
So that means. Make a connection if you can; if it comes up, you can talk about similar things. Sometimes, your interviewer may say, I have an eight-year-old boy, and you can say, I have an eight-year-old girl or ten-year-old girl. And if the person talks about their hobbies or other things in their office that show they have these hobbies and you can identify with them, you talk about that.
 
If the person talks about mistakes they made, you can, maybe, talk about how you learn from them. So you want to be likable. People like vulnerable people. By the way, if someone comes across as knowing everything and it's not vulnerable, we don't like them. We like people who are trying to improve themselves.
 
We like vulnerable people. We like human people. So, it just looks like you're some superstar attorney. It's not going to make you likable. Suppose you go into associates, and you act like you're better than all the other associates in your firm and incredibly competitive. In that case, the associates you're interviewing with aren't going to like you.
 
You need to tone everything down because if you look like a competitor and everything, they're not. You can do that with partners to some extent, but you just need to be very careful. You need to connect. And everybody is looking for a connection. By the way, people do everything they can to connect.
 
Sometimes, people buy expensive cars because they think other people will respect and connect with them. Sometimes, a lot of times, people join churches and they join different groups. They. They seek out friends. They try to connect with off. This is what life's about. And people feel much less connected now than they used to.
 
When people lived in small towns a hundred years ago, it's how they felt. Very unconnected. And so if you can connect with people, you'll be much better off. One of the best ways to connect with people is to allow people to talk about themselves.
 
And you can talk about, you ask people questions about themselves. You ask them questions in a way that they're talking about positive aspects of themselves that they're proud of. This is something, by the way, that I've noticed. Hands down, the most successful people do, but even the most intelligent people, the people that get ahead, the people that just do well at everything.
 
I talked to them and realized that 10 minutes into the conversation, everyone was asking me questions about things I'm excited about, like myself, or just figuring it out. They just start asking those questions and believe me. These are the most successful people.
 
It's not. It's not the least successful; it's always the most successful people who can do this. I don't know why, but it's a remarkable trait. If you can get people to, people can get you to talk about aspects of yourself you like because if they do you like, they'll like you. It's, you should, in a lot of interviews, if you're doing 20% of the talking, the other person doing 80% talking about themselves, that's good.
 
Now, just talking about the job and things is usually okay. But you, people, will just talk about the job, and that's impersonal. People can talk about themselves, things they've learned, their families, and others, and people will like you. It's just essential to remember. It's something that's covered. If you are interested in this stuff, you could take a Dale Carnegie course covered there.
 
It's. You always want people to talk about themselves. People like people that use their name a lot. You ask questions about others, but if you ask questions to make people defensive, they won't like you. If you ask questions about negative things, they won't like you.
 
If I need a favor from someone, if I'm asking somebody for something, what I will typically do is I will start the conversation by asking the person just to talk about something that there's interest in, whether it's a family or whatever, I will try to flatter the person or get the person to talk about themselves.
 
After they talk about themselves for several minutes, I will ask them for whatever they need. And so if I'm doing the most speaking, if you find yourself doing the most, people are less impressed and like you as much as if they're speaking.
 
So again, the most successful people are the best listeners. Ask the best questions; asking questions that make others feel good about themselves is very important. So you ask questions that the person will like and make them like themselves. And more personal.
 
Rather than business. So talking about grades and law school is not something that, you know, but about going off-roading. And how you like personally, things like that. I'm just saying if you saw off-roading pictures or some of the person's office talking about that.
 
It is essential. And people like you the best, and they feel like they're, they like you, then they're willing to overlook things like not having the best grades or the not the best experience. And this is all about being likable. It would help if you studied it. Dale Carnegie has written some books on how to win friends and influence people.
 
But this stuff is all covered there. These priorities, I would I hope you took notes, but if you didn't there may be, I think there's an article about this on BCG, but these five things are, being supportive, performing the job the way the firm wants the work done contributing positively to the firm's image.
 
And is the person better? This person is more likable. Thank you. Then, the other people you're interviewing. This is the webinar. I hope everyone benefited from this. And because these are critical points. I'm going to take a quick break for just 2 minutes, and then I will come back and answer questions just to give you some guidelines or questions.
 
So people like to ask questions. I'm just saying I stay pretty much as long as people have questions on these webinars, but you can ask questions about the webinar, or you can ask questions about it. Your situation or things bothering you and what you want to fix in your career. And then, I will spend as much time as necessary to answer those.
 
But then those are important questions, I think people can ask. So, I'm happy to answer anything that's really on your mind. The other thing is that if you are logged into Zoom and are worried, I won't show your name. So, I'll typically cut and paste the questions without showing your name.
 
So everything, of course, is confidential, and I wish we could have calls where people would ask questions with their voices, but attorneys are all because of the nature of it. You're afraid of talking about a lot of their stuff. Publicly. So, I appreciate everyone being on this webinar so far.
 
And I think it's great if, I hope everyone learns something. But I'll be back in a few minutes and then take questions. You may want to ask questions or type them into the Q and A. So, just go back in a few minutes.
 
All right, so just a second. I will pull up. No, it's just one second. Okay, so it looks like we've got some questions, which is good. So just give me one second here. Okay, this is the first question.
So, having been in numerous interviews, I've often wondered if there's an optimal number of questions. The candidate should ask this. So genuine, neutral spend on the interviewer. What's your perspective on this? So, the questions you ask, you should; the most significant piece of advice I can offer about asking questions is you want to study the firm and the firm you're interviewing with before you go in.
 
In addition to studying the firm, you want to psych yourself up for the firm. You want to find good aspects of it. You want to find ways that you're excited about it. And you almost want to meditate on it. By meditating, you want to think about the positive things.
 
What did I like? How do I connect with that? And then that will make questions come up. And then, even with your interviewers, you want to go in. If you know who you're interviewing with before the interview, you want to take, print up their bio pages, look at them, and think about how you like them or things you think are cool.
 
So, what do you like about the person? And you may not like them, but you have to figure out ways to come across like that. So once you do that, you'll have an exam. You'll have a good understanding of the kind of questions to ask. You also need to think about your practice here and your experience.
 
And then how does that work with the interviewer? So, for example, be like, maybe you. I don't know, have worked on a, maybe you're a defense attorney and do toxic tort defense. So you see, you think about all the things that you've learned and toxic tort, and maybe you're interviewing with another partner who does toxic tort, and you ask some questions related to what they've done that match the kind of things you're interested in.
 
You try to connect with them on that, or you try to connect with them on things that about or things you're excited about with the firm, and you try to figure out ways that you can be likable to the firm, things that are in your background, and so forth.
 
 
So this is my perspective. There are only a few questions you need to ask. It would help if you asked questions that will likely give you or make the firm and the person feel like you like them. And it's I strongly suggest that I've noticed that the best interviewers will.
 
Often, they'll type into Google, they'll try to read news about the firm that's positive, they will try to print up the bios of the people and write down, take notes on the bios while they're reading them about things that they like about the person, and they'll do the same thing with the firm and their practice area.
 
This is what the best people do. So, I've noticed when working with people from the best firms. They look like they have the best futures with the best backgrounds. This is what they do. They print the bios if they know them, they read news stories, and they read news stories.
 
They're sorry, I'm just writing this down. They also read positive things about the firm and get psyched up. And if you're the most psyched out, you will do the best. And then the question should flow out of this stuff.
 
And the questions, once you understand that, should flow out of this. And then the questions you do ask are questions that are going to get a positive post. Meaning, I, you guys, I saw that you. You've done these press releases about expanding your mass torts defense practice.
 
That's so great. How are you? What do you guys attribute to getting all the work, and are you planning on expanding more? It's very exciting. I want to be with a firm. Is it expanding, or did you bring in the clients? And if you know the person who brought them in, how is it challenging to bring in clients like that?
 
How do you think you're so successful in bringing in clients? So you just find ways to ask questions about things that the law firm is likely to feel, And the person you're talking with is likely to feel good about them, good about themselves, and so forth. So that's often one of the most helpful things I can tell you, but you need to ask positive questions that will get positive responses.
 
It would help if you stayed away from negative things, and your questions will come from reading all the news stories, reading the bios, getting psyched up, and taking notes about the questions you want. And then another pretty cool thing is when people when a law firm. Says what kind of questions you have for me.
 
You say something like I, after reading your bio and reading your bio and news, I wonder, this positive thing about, this positive thing and why, and so you just steer things in that level. And that is very helpful.
 
Okay, this is a good question. There's often a debate about how personal one should get in professional interviews when sharing personal stories or experiences that shape our legal journeys. What do law firms look for? Okay, so this is a good question.
 
And if you do need to be careful about personal stuff, especially that makes you look bad. There are certain things you want to steer away from. You want to steer away from talking about sickness. I'm sorry to say that, but many people are ill.
 
And so forth. And the law firms, it's just you steer away from that. You steer away from talking about, and this is just generally about problems you've had. And I'm only bringing this up because some people do this. Problems you've had.
 
It could be alcohol related. I'm just giving you an example. I've heard people go in and say they clean relationships, things along those lines, dates, just anything you can think of that's too personal. Marriage and marriage probably is okay, but you just want to steer away; that's not a problem, or it could be, yeah, but you could say divorce is just.
 
Losing jobs, not losing jobs, employment, and others. Just anything that's real personal to you, you really, that makes you look bad. You always want to avoid the ideas people will always use. This is just important. This isn't any employment situation, whether you're talking about peers, superiors, or peers.
 
We'll always use negative information against you if you have it. So it would help if you kept the negative aspects of your personal life away from your employers. And frankly, be careful about even talking to other people. You must be careful about friendships and firms because this can hurt you.
 
So, personal stories or experiences need to be related to some realizations, which means realizations that you're qualified, that you're a reasonable attorney, that you grew up a certain way and things like that a certain way and motivated you.
 
Things that gather, things that make you look resilient. Resilient means you, you've risen from. Problems in the meaning, maybe you grew up like a gang member or something, but those sorts of things and realizations and motivations, things that are personal, have made you realize things that make you very interested in the practice area.
 
I've worked at a firm once, Dewey Ballantyne; my grandfather had been good friends with Dewey when he was at the University of Michigan. And I brought that up. That was personal. I got a job because of that. Some people will. Personal stories that can be related to even when I was a lousy student, and then this thing happened to me.
 
I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. I know one very successful woman. It was very successful. Her father was sued for some sort of trademark case and settled it. And or no, and lost, and because of it, he had to file for bankruptcy, and their family lost everything. And so, she became a trademark attorney and could have been better. She didn't go to the best law school and didn't do the best there, but she ended up getting a job with one of probably the best trademark firms in the country because she went in and told this story about how her family lost everything because I lost a trademark suit.
 
So those sorts of things can be beneficial. If you have stories that make it seem like you're why you're committed to something, what made you like this, and learning about those questions. One thing I would say about questions for interviews.
 
I have a blog, Harrison Barnes. Com and I have written a lot about interviews on BCG. Still, I've written many interviews and articles about Harrison Barnes, so if you search for interviews, Harrison Barnes. Com or something. You can see those articles, but I've written a lot about it, and you have to have a perfect balance for a lot of these questions, and it's an excellent question.
 
So it's the next question.
 
That is an excellent question. When discussing my previous cases or experience, how much do law firms prefer quantitative results since the percentage of cases won over qualitative experiences like the challenges faced? This is another good question. So the thing about percentages and that sort of thing is when you start doing that, you get into the position of bragging and talking about things like that.
 
People are turned off by bragging about these percentages, and things are not. Necessarily, that is important. If you're an associate and you're not the one who's ultimately responsible for the case, people may feel that you just need to be very careful with that. So, just realize that if you talk about this sort of stuff in interviews, quantitative results could hurt you to some extent.
 
It's just, yeah. And percentages. You can bring it up, but you must be very careful. Qualitative experiences are better because the most significant reason people like people is vulnerability, which makes people like us suitable. So if you have, if you're vulnerable.
 
Then we like people. So we like people that say, here's one of the examples. I heard this very good person talk once it was Keith for Ozzie, and he's an exciting guy. And he's in, I used to be more in the self-improvement industry, which you may be able to tell because of the stuff I talk about, but I used to work with anyway, it doesn't matter, but I heard him give a talk.
 
I was in a small group, and in the talk, he said Keith went to Princeton, and then I think he got maybe a degree at Wharton or something. And then, with the youngest person ever hired at this giant. Bank or investment bank and then made a partner there within three years. So, the normal eight.
 
So he got up and said, No, I'm going to tell you about two different people. And I want to tell you, who do you like the best? So the first one is a guy that was first in his high school class. He was captain of the. The football team and a very competitive school. And he was going to Princeton.
 
He not only went to Princeton, but he graduated in three years. He was also a member of a very prestigious eating club there where all these famous people have been. And not only that but then he went to Wharton Business School. While there, he got a job with the most impressive investment bank in the country.
 
He went there, and he made a partner within three years. And by the time he was 28, he was making over a million dollars a year and entirely on top of the world. So that's the first person he talked about. And the second person he talked about was I grew up in this small town in West Virginia.
 
My mother died when I was or not. My father died when I was 14 from black lung disease. Because he was working in mines, my mother worked in a gas station at night as a cashier to put us through school or to support us. And then during the day. She worked as a maid in a hotel, and I managed to; despite all this stuff I was with when I was young, I used to get beat up.
 
The kids didn't respect me. However, I picked myself up, lifted weights, became a good football player, and worked hard in school. I was able to somehow miraculously get into a perfect college that I had no business being in, and I also got a scholarship. And I worked as hard as possible because I didn't get a full scholarship to the school.
 
I had to, and I wanted to graduate in three years so I wouldn't have to have debt for another year. And then, I got a job with a bank and worked hard there. I worked harder than other people. Other people were going out and partying at night and things. And I was just so grateful for the position that I committed to the bank for as much as I could.
 
And then I was advanced because of that. And I'm so grateful for the experience and for everything that's been given to me. So obviously, when you talk about people, that is when someone talks about themselves one way and not another. You obviously like the second person a lot more because they're telling you about overcoming obstacles and that they've had these mistakes and things that have happened.
 
And maybe he talks about mistakes, and he talks about he's beaten up. Maybe he talks about how he was outstanding in football but couldn't get it. Maybe you got a football scholarship. I don't know, but you just make yourself feel vulnerable. And we like vulnerable people.
 
We want them because they make us, they make us appreciate them. But if you're, if you come across as someone that's trying to brag and look like you're a big deal, that's not the same thing. I had; I'll tell you this quick story because it's exciting. I live in Malibu, California, and it's funny, there's all these real estate agents.
 
So there's, say, there's, I don't know, 200 houses sold in Malibu each year. There are 450 real estate agents. So, there are more real estate agents than there are places to sell or rent. And so it's just, so all these people are competing. So I was interested in it because I'm in this role that I'm in.
 
I wouldn't say I like these things, but certain ones are more successful. There are some houses here that I mean, I pay, I don't live 70 million or 200 million. And so some of them make an incredible amount of money. My girlfriend knows one of these top real estate agents selling hundreds of millions of dollars annually.
 
And I met him because he thought I was thinking about doing something with my house, whether it was leasing or selling it. And but again, he's someone that is in a different league, probably than you can sign my house. But anyway, he stopped by because he knew her.
 
And all the guy talked about was, when I told him about these big things he's done, he just talked about how grateful he is, how he's worked so hard, and how he appreciates the people who helped him so much.
 
In contrast, the real estate agents that are. Yeah. Not as good as him. We'll go out, and they'll brag. And this guy probably makes a lot of money, like 10 million a year, probably selling as a real estate agent. So, talking about being vulnerable, talking about how grateful you are.
 
And for your experiences, for people hiring you for the experience you've had for the interview. Like all this vulnerability, it goes a long way. And you don't want to look like a loser, but you want to look very excited about the opportunities you've had.
 
Like you're very that you're just, you don't want to look like you're better than others. I met This guy, and I was talking to him; he'd built like this Beverly Hills Hilton, he's ancient. He was in his 80s and lived in this house that was probably 30 or 40 million.
 
And then he, Malibu, and then he also had this house in Beverly Hills. It was on the most considerable lot and had its lake or something. And he's just an incredibly successful guy. And I talked to him, and he just said, I'm getting by. I'm doing the best I can. Being in this country is great because I grew up in Czechoslovakia or wherever it was.
 
And some, it wasn't that, but it was some country that he had to flee. And, and not only that, I was in the Holocaust. All this kind of stuff. And so everything was about vulnerability. And so this is the lesson. I've learned from many of the most successful people and the best interviewers. They're just very vulnerable.
 
I called this woman this morning saying that she had gone to Harvard and was magna cum laude and Harvard Law Review and then gone to Yale and has been like a summa cum laude or whatever. And, yeah. And just this incredible firm is doing very well.
 
And I called her, and she said thank you so much for calling me. I'm so happy to hear from you. Thank you for responding so quickly. This is a great thing. And, many times, you would call someone like that and they would act all entitled and things, but she was the opposite.
 
And so this is how the most successful people act. It's just they're always trying to. They always are vulnerable and try to make you try to put people at ease. And so talking about, and I'm sorry to just harp on this so much, but bragging, talking about all this stuff almost as a sign to some people of insecurity and ability to connect with them.
 
And so you just have to be very careful about how you approach this, the more vulnerable you are and this is what the most successful people do now. I'm not talking about Trump and people like that or Mark Cuban or Elon Musk. I'm not talking about people like that, but I'm talking about people who are very successful working for others like this.
 
And so it's just essential to understand in your search. And even with clients, clients want to believe that as well. How would you suggest approaching the subject of lateral movement if I've switched firms multiple times in the past few years without making it seem like a red flag?
 
Okay, so that's a good question. People who switch firms a lot really can get ahead. There's nothing wrong with switching firms, but what law firms want to see when they interview you. if they want to see it's almost like talking about Horatio Alger stories, and so what a Horatio Alger is just advancing and picking yourself up or whatever advance, I don't know. Still, I'll just use that story and advance, continue improving, and bring myself up from nothing to something.
 
So if you're talking about moving firms a lot, you need to position it as something like a position is everything you've done leads to this firm. So, everything you've done leads to this firm. So, it means you have to talk about better and better opportunities to realize your objectives.
 
So maybe you want to, and the idea would be to start out doing insurance defense, and then you want to do commercial litigation, so you move to one firm that does. Commercial litigation and it may be insurance defense, and sorry, I'm just giving this example of insurance defense and litigation and commercial litigation.
 
And then, but you're still doing insurance defense. You're still doing insurance defense and some litigation. And then the next move, maybe it's, and then the next one is commercial litigation for smaller clients,and then the next one would be this next move when you're interviewing.It would be commercial litigation for large. So it's something like that.
 
And the idea is you're moving to get closer and closer to your goal. And so this is the ultimate way to do it. If you can, and so you can position it that way. Sometimes, you can visit positions by just moving from smaller clients to larger clients or moving from a firm where they don't make any partners to one where you can be partners moving locations because of different things.
 
But the idea. What are we doing? Commerce? I don't know. Whatever. But it would be best if you positioned everything. It's that you're moving firms, and you're moving places because there's some sort of upward mobility. People respect upward mobility. Different places like France and stuff. If you're born into a particular family and have a certain, it's tough to advance.
 
But in Horatio Alger's type of story, what Americans love is we love people. They are moving and trying to improve themselves. So, if you're asked about the moves, this is how you do it. Now, I will say that if a firm is interviewing you, they will probably only bring it up a little.
 
They may be curious and bring it up a bit, but they want to avoid it. They're, they already realize that you've moved a lot. They're still willing to interview, so you should spend less time on it. But you don't want to portray weakness.
 
Now, I will go a little off track and talk to everyone on the call about weakness and showing that. So, liars are liars who don't like it when other liars show weakness. It's in when they're interviewing now. It's in the DNA of what it means to be a liar. So lawyers are expected to; you could have a client that chops someone's head off with an ax on camera, and the liar is still expected to defend them and not talk about negative things.
 
So your job is an attorney. It is always to portray things that are positive and downplay negative things. And the most important person you do that with is yourself. So if a wire is not sticking up for their client, portraying negative aspects of their client, we don't like that. We don't like that.
 
Attorney if they're and that attorney would be considered weak. And there are attorneys like that, that are weak, that don't stick up for their clients. And those attorneys don't have a lot of business, and they could do better. They don't stay around in law firms. So, you cannot portray weakness for your client, and you cannot portray weakness for yourself.
 
When I was in a big firm, there was an attorney, and I was shocked. He was an excellent attorney but did not have a partner and did not last long in the law firm. And I knew he wouldn't after he did this. He had this client, and it was a big client. The client was spending incredible amounts of money on the law firm, and it was his client.
 
And then I was in the hall one day, and with a couple of other associates, and we were discussing the client, and he was saying what a scumbag the client was, how he didn't approve of him, like how he was Bad at this and bad at that and I was shocked. I was like, why would this guy be talking so lingering about his client?
 
And soon enough, he lost the client because he probably showed the client that he didn't think highly of them. So you can't talk negatively and take your client's side. You also have to take your side. So, if you start talking about negative things about your lateral movement, I need to get sound.
 
I needed feedback. I needed help with assignments. I didn't trust people, and then you start looking like you have weaknesses. So it would be best if you positioned everything and your interviews to make it look like you're doing a better job. Someone asked if you could share those slides later.
 
Yes, they will go to this webinar, by the way. It will not be the Q and A; those will go up separately, but the webinar will be online and, I believe, on BCG. And then the slides should also be uploaded, so you can be able to see that. Okay, this person asked a question. Their name is displayed so that I won't show them.
 
Given that the firms want to see that you do not expect them to support you, is it a red flag to discuss mentorship or training opportunities in the interview? Or could that be a sign that you intend to stay there or be seen as a sign you intend to stay there and want to grow there?
 
This is an important statement you're making. You're saying you will support them rather than their explanation of your support. So the idea is this is just how it works. If you support the firm, the firm will support you back. So, there's a fascinating quote.
 
I am curious if I made it up or I don't remember, but it's something that I'm sure I didn't make it out. But The quote is that life supports what supports life. Businesses grow based on their ability to support others and improve lives. People become powerful. Anything when they're supporting others.
 
So, right now, I'm trying to support you. I just mean, I'm powerful, but it means that I'm supporting you. And that's important for you. You need people to be supported. And so life supports what supports life. So if you are helping and bringing other people up, those people will support you.
 
This is what charismatic religious people do in religions. This is what good business people do. This happens if you have a garden trying to grow a crop. If you water and take care of the crop, it will grow and support you. If you're raising animals to eat, all these sorts of things.
 
Life supports what supports life. If you have a significant other and you're helping support them, they will hopefully support you. And so this is just a general rule. It's one of the most essential rules for life and careers, and partners are bringing in lots of business right here.
 
Typically, they'll be seen as a client by the client, as someone who supports them, helps protect them, keeps them in business, and gets them out of trouble. So all this stuff is essential. You need to. Be seen as someone who's going to support others. And it's just essential that way.
 
So, life supports what supports life. If you support the firm, then the firm will support you. I can think of so many examples. I remember my first firm, and there was Quinn Emanuel. There was a guy who was up for a partner. And he didn't make a partner, but he worked very hard.
 
So many people would be angry when they wouldn't make a partner. They would leave the firm. They would give people bad vibes, all these sorts of things. So, instead of doing that, he decided that he was building 3000 hours a year and would work even harder. And dedicate himself even harder.
 
Now, the firm typically would make partners once a year. I don't know if it was in September or whenever it was, but maybe September's something like that. And we would have this partnership meeting, but they would decide who will partner. Instead of getting mad, he decided to help the firm and build even more hours.
 
So, in October, he built 400 hours, and in November, he built 400 hours. In December, he built 400 hours. And then they were like, this is wild. It's like he's on track to build almost 5000 hours a year. This is how he's reacted to not making a partner. And so they call a special meeting where they've never done that before.
 
And they made him a partner. So the idea is that the more you support, and I'm not suggesting anybody work that kind of hours, But the more you seem to someone that's going to support others, life supports life. If you're giving of yourself, bringing in business, and doing all these things to support your firm, then the firm will support you.
 
And it's just imperative to approach things that way.
 
In what ways can lateral hires demonstrate their interest in a new firm is motivated by alignment with the firm's mission rather than external factors like higher pay or balance? So yeah, you don't talk about pay. You talk about things you like about the firm and don't even have to say things you like about the firm.
 
You, if the firm, if you're interviewing for something that is a practice area, and you talk about how and how you like your practice area. You do this, and you do that. And then, and so you try to be as supportive. You try to make sure that the firm understands how much you like that, like this, and how you're excited to go someplace that does more of the type of work you want to do.
 
How all these sorts of things. And the more you talk about that, the more the firm will like you. So you need to ensure you're talking about those things rather than others. That may be different, making the firm think you're just there for higher pay or work-life balance.
 
It would be best if you come across as having enthusiasm for the work, making the firm think that you're moving, that they're moving there because it's a better fit, coming up with reasons that the law firm is someplace where you can achieve your goals.
 
These are all excellent questions here, by the way. Thank you. This is one of my favorite times of the week because it's an excellent chance to help people who may not know these things. And so it's beneficial. Does the timeline between the final interview and hiring decision often indicate the firm's level of interest in the camp? For instance, should I be concerned that I haven't heard back in a week?
 
Okay, so this is a good question. People. They do screening interviews and have been waiting to hear something for a few weeks. People will do a final interview, and weeks could go by before the firm notifies them whether there's an offer. And so why is that? That's a good question. So, one of the reasons is that the partners and maybe people may still need to return to the reviews.
 
They may be thinking about it. They may just need to be more organized. They may need help getting people's schedules to line up. You just don't know. So that's one thing. The next thing is that a law firm will often interview multiple people for the job. So they may bring in four or five people for second rounds or even more, and they're trying to decide, or they may have people scheduled.
 
Maybe you interview On October 15th, and then someone else is scheduled to interview for a second round on October 30th. And then maybe a good candidate comes along in the interim that even looks better on paper than you. So they decided they wanted to interview that person. So, not all law firms will make decisions right away.
 
Sometimes, they're interviewing multiple people. Sometimes you may interview, they may interview for, they may do a second round interview with you. They may do a second-round interview with someone a few days later. They may make that person an offer a week later, but they're still keeping you warm because if that person doesn't accept the offer, they'll make you the offer.
 
So you just don't know. It's nothing to worry about. Sometimes. They're often interviewing you because they think they'll get this significant matter coming in. That'll take a lot of work for you, and instead of the matter coming in, that doesn't. Because it doesn't materialize, you cannot know they're not interested in hiring you, but maybe they will wait. So there's just so much that goes on.
 
But I would say that One of the things that I would just stress is that this just happens a lot. Sometimes, firms will ghost you. Sometimes, you'll go on; I've had instances where I've seen people go on a second-round interview, and the firm never responds. Just nothing.
 
So I know it's important to you, but you want to avoid making a big deal about this. And this is an important point. And I hope everyone, this is another point. If you still need to do it, I could change your interviewing and stuff. There's the idea of being in demand.
 
Law firms love it when you look like you're in demand. So what does that mean? That means that, sorry, I'm just writing this down. So what does it mean? So if you go, Cool. I'm out on a date with someone, and I don't know when you're expecting; however, the dynamic is with this person.
 
Maybe they're expecting you to call them and then calling you. And so I'm not going to get into this male, female type stuff, but if someone's waiting for someone to call them and the person doesn't after a first date, That's it. So there's not really, there's no reason to follow up and say, why didn't you call me?
 
You just can't do that. It doesn't work. I remember once I met this woman. It was a funny story. I met this woman at a party, and I liked her. But I don't know if she was friends with someone or if that worked for me, and it was her ex-boyfriend.
 
And so I was like, this is not. I can't get involved in this. And anyway, so this, but I thought maybe he, this guy, was moving out of town or something. And quitting his job and stuff. Maybe I'll talk to her after this, but in the interim, like she, I was in my house one night and going to bed, and She was standing outside my window, and I was like, what the hell?
 
And that scared me. So, that was not something I was interested in anymore. Not obviously, but the thing is, I just closed the shades and went to bed. But the point here is that if you receive, if you seem desperate, if you seem like you don't have other opportunities, if you seem like you're not in demand, Then that's just a turn-off.
 
People are going to be turned off. So if the firm thinks you are in control, they either call you back to get together or don't. And so you can't worry about it. Another thing people do is they're like, Oh, I had this other offer. Sometimes that works.
 
And I need to decide, and that's something, but anytime I, one of the things that I'm good at and recruiting are I'm good at, making sometimes the law firms feel like they're in demand. They're hard to get into, and candidates making them feel like the law firms hard to get into our law firms hard to get into and the law firm feeling like it's essential not to bring some, to have I don't have a specific type of person and this person's scarce in the market.
 
So when people think that, They're much more likely to be interested. So you have to make yourself feel in demand. You have to make people think that you're interviewing with this firm or make, but maybe you have all these other firms that want to interview you, but you're more interested in this interview.
 
And you should be; you have to feel like you're in demand, just like you would approach you; you have to appear desirable and can't appear desperate because if you appear desperate, the law firm will be like, wait a minute. Why? Why is this person desperate? And so you just have to be very careful with that.
 
And it's just, I hate to bring it up that way, but you don't want people to feel like you're desperate. It would be best if you felt like you were in demand because the more in demand you make yourself be more in demand, seem to people, the more likely they are to. To be interested in you.
 
So being in demand makes them interested in you. I've got a lot of examples of this, but when in relationships, if you're in someone you're interested in a relationship with, you realize that all these other people are interested in them. Suddenly, You're more interested in them.
 
And that's just how it works. So if you are interested in dating someone and all these other people are trying to date the same person, and the person chooses you, then that person's more attractive for whatever reason. So that's just how people think and think about your relationships.
 
Think about this: how attorneys recruit. They want to feel like the person they're hiring is in demand. They have a good person. Okay. So how, in an era of increasing. AI and automation. How do law firms weigh traditional legal skills against technological proficiency during hiring?
 
Should I, as an attorney, place more emphasis on showcasing my adaptability to new technologies? I don't think that's that important. But again, I need to become an expert in AI. I use it to some extent, but if people bring it up, you can talk about it enthusiastically and how it can be used.
 
But Sam is willing to work how anybody wants me to. People will often talk about in interviews where they're writing briefs and stuff with it and how that I need to know how sites wrong cases or cases don't exist. But what I would recommend is just.
 
Thank you. Bring it up if it comes up, but partners often will only like it if people are used to traditionally doing things. And if you want to do things differently, that may threaten them. And so you just need to talk about it to the extent people bring it up.
 
And if they do bring it up, you must be prepared to discuss it. So it would be best if you understood it. And you need to be enthusiastic and talk about how we can get better results.
 
And, you don't want to show up to people who may not understand it. Younger people often will have different skills than older people, but older people will often value those skills. But you have to be careful because they often feel like what they're doing is the right way to do things.
 
I'll just tell you a funny story. When I started recruiting a long time ago, that's 24 or 5 years ago. There were no articles or anything on recruiter websites. They just have these websites, and they were just, they just talked about how great they were. And then.
 
And then, I started publishing articles and advertising on the Internet and doing all these things. And the difference between what I was doing and what other recruiters were doing was like night and day. And I started using all these new technologies and databases. And I couldn't, with older attorneys, the older recruiters.
 
They were used to calling, co-calling, working on one job at a time, all these sorts of stuff, and that honestly is something that no longer was working, and I was able to become very successful doing new things. So, I started this firm because it was the first time anyone else did it. This is at the moment.
 
I'm not saying there's anything special that I'm doing about now, but I just saw the market differently. The same thing for you to understand with AI is that it's compelling. It's something that's a game changer. But if you're interviewing older people, they may not understand that you need to be very careful about showing them up, about talking about things they don't like,
 
Transcribing about acting overly confident, but say, I'm learning about this and this, but I'm not making them feel stupid because I think it's that powerful that if a young attorney is talking to an older attorney and understands that you can make the person feel stupid and not necessarily like you.
 
It's a fundamental question.
 
Okay. Let me see here.
 
These are good questions. I like these questions where there are a lot of words and thoughts. Let's go. Okay. I recently decided to withdraw an application from a slightly more prestigious firm I interviewed after a very short time with my current firm. They started very interested, but things cooled, and it was a few weeks before I heard back.
 
I'm also doing exceptionally well in my current firm regarding the people I'm working with and overall volume level work for my class here. Did I make a mistake in Burnabridge?
 
Future employers are in the right mood to stay put. Okay. So I recommend I, I'm a recruiter, but I recommend just a slightly more prestigious firm isn't that big of a deal. I wouldn't, and I would not have withdrawn my application. I would've tried to get an offer, and then when you got it, I would maybe not take it, or if you didn't get it.
 
Then, ask if you can come back and apply again. That would have been how I would have handled it. When you withdraw an application, it just sends a; that's different from what people always do. It's, it's okay, but it almost makes it look like you're scared that you might not have an offer.
 
So I wouldn't have done that, but it doesn't mean anything. Law firms have short memories. So, if you were to apply in two or three years, there might be completely different people there. So, it's not something you need to work or worry about, but this is an excellent question. I think it's always better to stay at your current firm if you're doing well.
 
Because what that does is if, if you are doing well and, compared to others because of law firms, it's just, again, I'm in the business of moving people, but I just want to be completely straight, straight with you that if you can stay.
 
At your current employer, the longer you do that, the more marketable you'll be in the long run. Someone who stays at their firm for five years and doesn't move looks like they're loyal. It looks like you're going to stick around. It looks like you can be trusted. It looks like you can get along with people.
 
So people will leave for all sorts of reasons. I'll just give myself as an example. If I am, I can work in law firms and do good work, but I'm more entrepreneurial-minded. Yeah. I would be a terrible hire. I would stay in a place for a year or two and then think about going to another place.
 
And that's not good. A law firm shouldn't hire people like that. I wouldn't. Staying put in place means you're committed to the practice, like you're willing to learn. Like you can be trustable clients for all these sorts of things. And if you do move, maybe you, then you, when you move to a much more prestigious firm, but not maybe, or a place you can get different types of work, but you keep in mind, if you move, you're starting from ground zero, you're starting from ground zero in terms of your relationships.
 
You're starting from ground zero in terms of establishing trust. You're starting from ground zero in terms of being able to do the type of work that the firm does and being. And knowing how to work with different people, learning about clients, and being trusted. So many times, I'm just being honest with you.
 
You're much better off staying in a firm for doing well. There's no reason to move, not even for a more prestigious firm. And you're also people who make partners that the firm loves. Loves people that are loyal and stick around, and you have more security, your current firm, if you stay around.
 
So there are many reasons to stay at a firm; if you're doing well enough, you can move to a much more prestigious firm, and there's more opportunity and more income than, yeah, why not? But you have to be careful, like what my future opportunities will look like if I move firms because that's different.
 
Always then your best option. I would be cautious many times about leaving your firm, so I just say that because I think this is my opinion, but I think I'm right. The attorneys that are happiest practicing law are the ones that do the best practicing law and often are the ones that are the most stable.
 
So it's just how it is: you stick with a group of people. They become your tribe, you understand them, they understand you, and everything just comes together, and you do well. I recommend that everyone stay with their current firm as long as possible if you're doing okay.
Now, if there's an incredible opportunity where your salary will be doubled, and there's more or increased by 50 percent, you want that firm for different reasons. It's okay to move like there are specific ideas, certain things that are good for moving. For example, if you want to be in-house, and you 100% know that's what you want, you can get a job at a much more prestigious firm.
 
That will make it easier for you to go in-house because in-house companies, the best ones, hire people from the most prominent firms because they're the ones they use for the work. And then they feel like they're getting a better deal. But you just need to be very careful about that. So I, this is, I've written articles about standards of the current firm.
 
I would review those. Yeah, we're for some partners who have taken a liking to me and influenced my firm greatly. One is difficult. He does not know the standard review for dispositive emotions. They are also very adamant. They're correct and susceptible. They often rewrite motions to include personal attacks against the other side, which once led to sanctions.
 
I want to help this person stay in their graces. What can I do to fix them? So this is a simple question. It would help if you took the side. That's it. It would help if you took their side. They need to feel them; they need to feel you. You have their back, and you can't. You don't want to criticize them, make them feel criticized and make them feel criticized, and so forth.
 
You just need to be very careful about all that. You just can't; you just can't do it. You have to be very careful about the size. So you just need to be very careful with all that. So that's pretty much the answer. You just can't; you can't make people feel stupid. If you do, then you're in trouble.
 
So I was once at this firm and, I shouldn't say, but I'm a, I'm, I'm not bragging here, but I'm pretty decent when it comes to motions, I'm an I write very well. I could write better at everything. I could be a better writer. I'm, but, and with motions, I used to be very good at them.
 
And it's just something I took to, so I was hired by this firm to work with a partner. It was well-known as a good litigator, but it couldn't work. He would or couldn't write. He would write sentences and leave prominent words out so they would be incomplete.
 
And then he couldn't effectively put his thoughts on paper. But when it came to talking in person, it was incredible. So, he was an outstanding attorney. Like he was literally, I don't think he ever had lost a case. He may have had a judgment against his client and settled things but never lost a case.
 
But I would never say he wasn't a good writer in a million years. I wouldn't tell people that I wouldn't tell a secretary that I wouldn't make him think that I wouldn't mark up his work in a way that would show all that. I would just. I did it to make the corrections, but I wouldn't even tell him I was making the corrections when he would read it and see how good it was and if he wrote something.
 
The idea is there's going to be partners that you always work with that aren't necessarily good at things like they, they have blind spots, and so you cannot bring that to their attention. You just have to support them and fix their problems, and that's it. You don't want to make people feel insecure, and people, different people, have different levels of insecurities.
 
So you just need to be on top of all that and do what you can to not. Do not bring that to their attention and criticize people if you make them feel good. I once had a partner I worked with that was just like you were talking about. It was incredibly tart and into the other sides.
 
He was good at fighting with opposing counsel and undermining them, and I just really loved it. And so people would work with him and just be disgusted with it. And then he wouldn't like them back and wouldn't give them work or support them.
 
And then I worked with him and told him how cool he was and how funny this stuff was. And he loved me. It's been 24 years since I worked in the law or 26 or whatever since I worked in this law firm, and the guy sends me Christmas cards with a one-page write-up about his family and what they did every year.
 
He loved that I took a side when other people didn't. So you can't. Be upset about this. You have to support the partners. You have not to take the side of others that are against them. And just be very neutral and to the extent,t you say things, don't say anything negative; I'm in this business group, and I'm like president of it and or the chair or whatever, and I had to pick, the person for to be the chair for the next year and after picking them the person did a lot of stuff that I thought was maybe not.
 
And again, I need to be more right about it. And they didn't do anything legal or anything. There were just certain events and things they were in charge of that stayed on track. And so I told a couple of senior people about this that were outside the group and advising us.
 
And they just didn't say anything. They were just not taking sides. They were. They were neutral; they told stories and things but didn't take sides. And that's very smart. You just only get involved in a few of these things. You don't take sides. You want to avoid coming across as someone who does that.
 
And if you do that, you'll be much better off. People that don't do that. And it's just beneficial never to take sides in any dispute. Don't take sides in anything. If anything, make the people feel supported and not get involved in politics. Since I was talking to this one firm, I went to this firm once for an interview.
 
It was. I'd only been practicing for six months, and it shouldn't have gone in the interview, but it was like an entertainment law firm in LA. And these guys were representing all these movie stars and studios and stuff. And I had a friend that worked there, and I was like, Oh, this sounds cool.
 
And so I went into the interview. And it went well with the first couple of people I interviewed with. But then I got into this one interview. This partner was just incredibly caustic, really mean, like he was just saying these things that were you're a loser for interviewing me, six months, why would you, and I was like, wow, this guy's freaking maniac.
 
Like, I just really hate him. And so I, after that interview, I went into another interview with some associates, and I was like, I just got to go. I'm out of here. Like me, I was not too fond of the firm and decided he was horrible after that person was treated.
 
Some of the stuff he was saying was shocking. And I went home, and I was so upset. Like even at the end of the day. I got on my couch, and I think dogs can sense when you're upset with something, and my dog came up, who wasn't that friendly of a dog, and kept kissing me and cuddling; it was just that I was shocked by this interview.
 
But anyway, so then. I kept in touch with my friend, and then a couple of years later, he said that guy's been fired, and a whole group of other attorneys left because they got on the wrong side of some issue. I wonder if he got it, so he went from being one of the most powerful partners in the firm to being on the outs.
 
And what does that mean? It just means that if you get involved in different things, and you get involved in different groups, and you're seen as on one side of an issue in terms of another, you're in trouble. So you don't, to the extent you can get around it, you don't want to play these political games and be on people's side because you don't want people disliking you; you need to be like Switzerland and in the middle of things.
 
So you can support different partners but don't want to be. On the side of one group against another, you just need to avoid it. And, yeah, okay. Can you briefly discuss our interview with a new firm for a partner position as a senior associate with a partner position?
 
Partner position. Okay. I'm assuming this means. Interviewing for a partner position as interviewing for a new firm for an associate position. Okay, so when you're interviewing for a partner, this partner position is much easier. Now, there are some firms like Gibson Dunn, where you have to be liked by all the partners.
 
We interview many of them to become partners, but a partner position is essential. It's about depending on the firm, but you must have business in most cases. It's essentially about the amount of business you have and how much of your, how much of your collection. I'm just being very direct here.
 
You are willing. So what does that mean? So this is the basics of it. It's a lot more than that. It's about fit and stuff, but it's really about money, in a lot of cases. So, if you have, this is just how it works. I'm, this is a high number. If you have 5 million in business, some firms will pay you; others may pay.
 
Pay you, 1. 5 million. Others might pay you a million for all that sort of thing. So, it just differs. And so this is a lot of what it's about. It's not always about this, but that's what it's about. Or if you don't have a business, it's about your future ability to get business.
 
Now, these are for kind of equity-type roles, or if you're interviewing for a partner, that's like an income partner would be more about your ability to do this specific type of work and maybe bring in business later.
 
So this is really what kind of partner roles are about. It's more about the firm's power. They. They want to know how much of your business you have, how much to share, the level of support you need, and all this. So they're interviewing you and asking if they can profit from you?
 
And you're asking, can I make money off of that? And then how? And how willing you are to share resources to bring people in to bring clients and how much they trust that. Okay, so that's what they're looking for in partners. They're also looking for. Sometimes, you may be interviewing for a partner position where the firm already has work.
 
So then they're interested in sort of your ability of how you fit in and that sort of thing. That's but the partner's basically about that. And if you're interviewing for an associate position, it's a little different. Partners are expected to, for the most part, have a business, share that business with the firm, and agree on a fair split regarding the amount of money they bring in or their future ability to bring in business and what it looks like.
 
For an associate position, they're, so this is one of the ways to think about this, and I think it's the most important when interviewing for a partner position. If you're in, you're interviewing to be a general. So, general means control; it's just a different thing.
 
Supervising associates, bringing in work, all that sort of thing. So you're interviewing to be a general. And then, if you're interviewing for an associate position, you're interviewing to be a soldier. A soldier with potential. What does that mean? It means it means you follow orders like you follow orders.
 
You do what's asked of you, do what's asked, and all that sort of thing. But one of the other things I would just bring up that's important even for generals. So generals, attorneys in law firms that have a business, are ultimately, like, still team players at the best firms. Now, some firms are very siloed and where people are doing many different things, but they're still team players.
 
And they play the game that does and do what their superiors want. Sometimes you may have, so sometimes, for example, a law firm may tell a partner, We'll pay you as long as you bring in 5 million; we'll pay you 1. 5 million a year. And then maybe it gets prolonged for one year.
 
And they say, we can only pay a million this year, but we'll make it up to you in a few years when things get better. And then the partner will say, yes, no problem. And then and many other people would say, Hey, that sucks. I'm leaving. So you're still expected to be a team player as a partner, and partners want to see you do that.
 
They'll, law firms, want to see you do that. Law firms also want to get a sense that you'll share work. That you won't work in a sense that you'll get along with others. You'll get along with others and have a sense that you won't leave. Others, since you will stay.
 
I'm sure it's sensible, not me. And so all these positive things that you'll support them, and it's much harder to be a partner than an associate. A lot of partners will tell you. Hey, I'm, I miss being a partner. I miss being an associate.
 
So basically, soldiers can follow orders and do what's asked. And then it depends if you're a junior or senior. But if you're an associate or interviewing with other associates, you typically don't want them to feel threatened. So associates interviewing with other associates have to be very careful about saying sorry to other associates.
 
Let me just write that down. Other associates need to be very careful about trying to be threatening. So you don't want to be threatening to other associates. So you need to, when you're interviewing with other associates, you need to be seeing like. Someone who gets along will not upstage will not upstage, sorry, upstage others.
 
Not a threat. So it is not a threat to associates or other associates. So this is very important. So associate's won't like you if you interview the associates and you appear like you're going to be better than them or you're going to do things differently. Now, associates interviewing partners, this is just that when you do that, you need to brag and not brag, but talk about how hard you're going to work and how, I don't know, you're willing, just things that.
 
It would impress other partners. So the partners can feel like that. So these are the general rules of interviewing. You also said something about a senior associate interviewing a new former associate. Yeah, so I think I've answered that. If you have a follow-up question, I'm happy to answer this.
 
It's a good question. But partners are interviewing with partners. It's really about your business, your ability to future good business, your ability to share the business with the firm, your ability to if the firm wants to rip you off one year, how malleable you not rip you off, but not on a prompt how malleable is seen with that?
 
And then how much you can help the firm and associates. Your ability to be a soldier, do what's asked of you, and then you have the different types of partners in the, so you have a part, you have people interviewing with other associates, meaning you don't want to look threatening. If you're interviewing partners, then this is where you pull everything out and talk about how hard you're going to work, how aggressive you are, and all that.
 
You have to interview differently with partners than as an associate. You brought up a senior associate, and I'll just type and deal with that a little bit. So, a senior associate is a senior associate. Different types of senior associates are hired. Sometimes, the law firm will hire a senior associate because they just have a lot of work and don't want the person to stick around very often, which happens a lot.
 
Other times, they'll hire a senior associate. Because they are partners left, the firm has a lot of institutional work. Other times, they'll hire a senior associate. Senior associates often bill at rates that are similar to partners. So it becomes tough for them to get work because partners typically keep a percentage of the work that they do that's high, and then it's a lower percentage of that they get for work that others do.
 
So senior associates need to be very dedicated, but they also need to, they need to appear, and I hate to say this, but they need to appear all they'll be okay with. If they don't make a partner, the firm asks him to leave because this happens often as law firms hire senior associates.
 
And then they only keep them on for a couple of years, and then they just get rid of them. It's sad, but it happens. But suppose I was a senior associate interviewing with a firm. In that case, it's not a good idea to walk into one of the world's most prominent law firms as a senior associate because your odds of making a partner are very slim, and they'll probably just use you for a short time.
 
They may make you counsel and stuff, but that becomes very difficult. So that's just kind of some rules with senior associates. But the final thing is the senior associate. I Need to appear hungry. They typically will have a lot of client contacts that need to appear as good clients.
 
And then they need to appear; we'll work a lot of hours and then and then, and then you need to figure out when you go into the interview as a senior associate. Is this a partnership role, Or is it short term? And if it's short term, which it probably is, then you need to say that I'll work as hard as I can as long as you have.
 
So these are just some general rules. I'm sorry for giving you so much detail about that; I wanted to ensure you understood this as well as I could. Okay, let's see here. This is another question. The person used their name, so I'm just levitation.
 
Okay, cannabis, so cannabis clients are weird. It's just that it was an excellent practice here for a while. And now it's petered out. There's a lot less working for alcohol, which used to be considered horrible. And there was a prohibition, and now tons of big law firms do alcohol practice areas.
 
And cannabis is something I grew up with thinking it was like this horrible thing and people that smoked it for stoners and not to be trusted and all this stuff, but not maybe to be trusted, but not. Worthy of a lot of respect. And it's just I don't think it's that way anymore.
 
I think cannabis is very even at the highest levels and is very respected. People don't care about it. Like they used to. Even Elon Musk is smoking on Joe Rogan. It's funny, but I don't think people think about it as they used to. I don't think working for a law firm that does cannabis will hurt you anymore.
 
I think it would have been the past, but honestly, I think things have changed so much that no one cares. It's just a different world than it used to be, and I wouldn't worry about it. But what I would worry about is if the law firm is overly dependent on it because I have seen that it's just that cannabis is not really what people thought it was going to be.
 
I think a couple of years ago, they thought it would be something, five years ago in California and so forth, a significant thing. It is a big thing because you have it legal in New York, Colorado, and all over California. And it's a booming Michigan.
 
It's a booming thing to some extent, but it's far from what people thought it would be. And I don't think, I don't think there's a lot of people that are that nervous anymore about cannabis. I think that. It used to be that way, but I don't think that's that way.
 
I will tell you, I was interviewing an attorney from this law firm in Albany, New York, and he was looking for a job, and his firm did nothing but porno, like representing porno makers, and I think that would maybe taint a little bit. Even though that's acceptable, cannabis is not the same thing.
And I would. I don't think you have to worry about that.
 
Okay. So you're right. There's some. Firms where there are people who have an icy demeanor and are not welcoming. I've experienced several of those. I interviewed with a big firm in downtown Los Angeles years ago. When I was still an attorney, for some reason, I went in and interviewed with labor and employment; I was interviewing with a labor and employment partner.
 
I wasn't looking for a labor and employment job. And he was just as. Cold and not welcoming and unpleasant as it could be, so much so that after that interview, I completely lost interest in working at that firm; even though I interviewed with a couple of people later, I didn't even.
 
I wonder if I got a job there or not, and they called me back for extra interviews, but he was awful. Just very cold, not welcoming, suspicious, just not. He just took a look at me and I; we were just completely incompatible. However, one interesting thing was that after that, my best friend went to work at that law firm and was there for six or seven years.
 
And he said that this guy was so awful. He would rotate people to work in the labor employment department, and he would rotate them pretty much every year. All these people would go there and quit or get fired working for this guy. So I would be very cautious going to work somewhere where someone like that is there.
 
And if someone is cold and unwelcoming, that's also not a good sign. The people you're working with should like you. I had another friend who worked at a law firm, and he got a series of LLMs. He'd gone to a law school in California called Thomas Jefferson. I don't think it's even around anymore, but it was unaccredited.
 
But you can still in California take the bar if you go to an unaccredited law school. But just so you can do that in California, I think you can do it in New York. And then, after that, to look more at why he was knowledgeable. He, I think, just had dyslexia and didn't. I would need to take the LSAT or get a better score.
 
So that's what happened with that. He was still brilliant and ended up getting several LLMs, and then this final one was at Harvard. And then, somehow, he got a job at the Los Angeles office of a prominent New York law firm. And I don't know how he got the job, but when he got there, everybody was very cold, not friendly, and not giving him work.
 
And the poor guy almost had a nervous breakdown because he felt horrible. And then he went to another big firm in L.A. There was an L.A.-based firm kind of midsize, and his career took off, and you got the highest bonuses and brought in clients. But the point is, I would stay away when you interview with a firm where people are cold and not welcoming.
 
There's a reason they're like that. There's a reason why the law firm keeps them there: that's the law firm's personality, and they don't care. So, I would stay away from firms like that. The other thing is that when you walk into a firm, every firm has a different approach.
 
Kind of vibes. And so if you walk into a firm that has a specific type of person or where you don't feel comfortable, then you should stay away. There's, I walk into, you can walk into houses where people live and feel different vibes. There's just different vibes that go around.
 
I remember this is a funny story. I don't know why I'm going off track so much, but I think I have had people working for me in offices in India or an office in India since 2001. However, at one point, there was a significant guy in India who knew that I wasn't close with him, but he had a friend coming from the head of this.
 
Religion was like a branch of the religion, but with thousands of followers in the city he was in. Wanted to come to Los Angeles and stay with me for, with his wife for a couple of weeks for, I don't know what the reason was that he was, I don't know, but he wanted to stay with me for a couple of weeks, and then he was going to give these.
 
There were giant presentations all around Los Angeles to these followers, but anyway, he stayed in this room of my house and was a very religious man. He'd get up, and his wife and they would do this type of breathing exercise and yoga for 4 or 5 hours daily. And anyway, so when he left, there was, like, this energy in the room.
 
It was very positive and almost meditative, and I can't explain it. But, my. Yeah. My wife felt it, and other people went to some different people. Different things give different energies to the atmospheres you're in. And I'm not big on supernatural things, but you can feel different energies when you walk into different firms.
 
Sometimes, they feel welcome. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes that's just personal to you. So you want to go and be in places where. The energy feels right. And if it doesn't, you will have a hard time. It's just what it is. And, there's this thing by Malcolm Gladwell that people form impressions of things within the first several seconds or even instantly.
 
And it's the same thing that happens in all that happens when in law firms, too. So, I would be cautious if things seem like they rub you negatively, and if you walk in and feel comfortable, you will do well. If it doesn't, you shouldn't work there.
 
When do you offer a resume workshop? May I attend? I do one resume workshop for my candidates every Tuesday, I think, at 3 p.m. Pacific time. So if you, if I'm working with you at BCG, people will send their resumes in advance. I don't have the URL for it right now, but you'll get it if you're a candidate.
 
The other thing we do is do a quarterly resume workshop. So now it's the first quarter, which would have been in February or January, February, March, and then March, April, May. And then June, July, and August. Yeah. So the next resume workshop, I think, will be happening maybe even next week. So I don't know, but you'll get a notification about it.
 
And then, in the resume workshop, anybody who submits a resume, I'll review it on the call, which is a lot of fun. Sometimes, these calls go like four or five hours, but I can review your resume, and it's always helpful to get. Getting input on your resume can help you quite a bit. And I love going over resumes in the resume workshop.
 
It's a lot of fun. You can always make a lot of excellent improvements for people. So that'll probably be, I think, next week or any week after because I do a quarterly.
 
So yeah, if you get fired or leave on bad terms, that's okay. Most attorneys get fired or have to leave a job under dire circumstances at some point in their career. It's just learning lessons and that sort of thing. Firms, if they check your resume; there are two types of checks.
 
Sometimes, you need to be careful of this, but it only sometimes works. Sometimes law firms will know people at another firm, so if you're not working or you get, or you're at the current firm, they'll call them up and say, hey, what do you think about this person?
 
They may do that if you're not currently working there and you need to work at all. Does it happen a lot? No, probably 15% to 20% of the time. But if they call up and just check your references, the firm will confirm your time there, and that's it. One thing I've noticed, it's interesting.
 
Talking about references is the best; firms will generally give glowing references to people regardless of how they did there. I've seen cases where I had one case where a woman was at a big firm for six months and then was institutionalized for a couple of other months for some psychiatric disorder. Still, I called the firm for a reference and wanted to see how she would do, or I wondered why I called.
 
Maybe she asked me to, and they gave the most glowing reference you can imagine. It was, yeah. I think it was a big firm. I don't want to say the name, but it's a prominent New York law firm. And I've noticed this repeatedly, with the best firms always giving great resonance and reviews.
 
The ones that don't are often smaller firms or firms that have people, or I don't know, you have to be careful with those. But the best firms are almost always good references. Sometimes, if you do something wrong, they will follow you. If you had some significant problems or something, or they talked to other people.
 
I had this one instance where there was this law firm in Wisconsin, and they hired one of my candidates for an important job. He was making quite a bit of money for Wisconsin. And then the guy was there for a week or two, and then the law firm just fired him. And I was like, what the hell happened? And they said he didn't tell us everything about his history.
 
And I was like, what does that mean? Does he have a criminal record or anything? And they're like, no. They just didn't tell us stuff. So I wonder what happened or why they did that. They wouldn't tell me. But after that, I said, okay, this has sometimes happened.
 
There's nothing wrong with leaving the firm on good and bad terms. The only thing I would recommend is if that happens, what you should do is you want to talk about it less. Law firms will, when they bring you in to interview you, they're going to only go into a bit of detail about it because they don't; they want to hire you and make money.
 
They don't want you to feel negative about your past. And if they're bringing you in, typically, you want to avoid doing anything like that. The other thing I would just say that's important is when you're interviewing with law firms. And about this, you always need to portray yourself as strong.
 
So you don't want to come across as weak. You want to avoid coming across as having had lousy baggage. You just remember that you're an attorney. And if you were representing the client, you would do so in a certain way. And as an attorney, you must also represent yourself in a certain way.
 
So that's, you're your client. You're an attorney, so you need to come across as very strong. Okay, how open are law firms to nontraditional career passages, attorneys who have taken entrepreneurial ventures or transitioned from a different industry? Can this experience be an asset, or are they generally perceived as tourists?
 
Unfortunately, law firms do not value entrepreneurship, and with good reason. Entrepreneurs are just a different breed of person. They are interested in ways to make money, how to start businesses, how to do exciting things, and still see new businesses and new opportunities.
 
And it's just a way of thinking. Unfortunately, lawyers, compared to entrepreneurs, I'm not saying this isn't good. Are things like stabilities valued, plain being part of the team valued, and doing things the way the law firm has always done things valued? And so entrepreneurs get into law firms, myself included, and could do better.
 
They're. They may have the skills to be a reasonable attorney, but they will just do poorly. This is just different from how lawyers are. Now, some lawyers are very entrepreneurial, and they will start law firms, and that's a form of entrepreneurship, and they'll run law firms. And so you can certainly be a reasonable attorney.
 
With these types of skills, but at the same time, you just need to realize that law firms are not necessarily fired up about attorneys who have taken nontraditional career paths. In terms of being an entrepreneur, the final thing is that lawyers are not entrepreneurs.
 
They're, it's just different. You can't; it's just too difficult. And you probably wouldn't be happy in a firm either. Now, I am transitioning from different industries. Okay, people. become liars after being bankers or different types of things. So there's nothing wrong with that. But in general, you need to be careful.
 
I sent an article to law firms last week about people they should avoid hiring. And it was entrepreneurs as one of them because they are typically unhappy. Let me just see here. Okay.
 
So, next question. Okay. This is from a foreign lawyer. Okay. I've been a foreign lawyer in Nigeria for five years, and I just concluded my master's degree in sports, though my practice in Nigeria has been an I.P. entertainment.
 
We're taking the New York Barks separately by the series of firms. It's not easy to secure an interview for a social position. Okay, yeah, so this is very common. We, I, kind of have these questions, and it's foreign liars ask this every week. These are good questions, but the problem with moving to a foreign country is that I.P. and entertainment are strict practices for anybody, even a U.S. lawyer, to get into because there's little work in it.
 
So what happens often with foreign lawyers is that it's challenging to get a position in the U.S. You have to typically, I think, get an LLM first, but even an LLM. There are LLM programs at Harvard and all these different places for foreign lawyers, and most don't get positions in the United States.
 
So you need to, you need to get an LLM, then you can take the bar, but the smartest thing to do is then you get a J.D. Once you get a J.D., the J.D. makes you more marketable. And the reason is because what you're doing is you're competing against the U. S. Attorneys, people competing against U.S. attorneys, and then for grades and all that sort of thing, grades, transfer grades, et cetera. I'm just writing it down. And then the law firm can compare you to them. The problem with an LLM is pretty much anybody can get an LLM, but if you have the money, you can do that.
 
And then not only that, but grades are also excellent in US LLM programs. So, getting a J.D. after the LLM is essential. The problem, I just want you to understand, is there's no incentive for a U.S. law firm to hire someone who needs to get. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I need to get a work visa that is used to many different types of countries that may not stick around because they're from another country.
 
They may have to go home. Family members have problems. So it's just very difficult for law firms to do that. They will that you have, but you have to, you're going to have to, be willing to work for less money. You will have to be willing to start at smaller firms.
 
You probably need help with doing I.P. and entertainment. So you just need to be very careful, but this is the route you take. Get an L.M., you get into the USJD program, then you start applying to jobs, and you can often do very well after doing that, but it's tough to get positions just coming from a foreign country because you have to think about how you would a U.S. attorney, to get a position in a law firm in Nigeria, it just would be not easy. It's the same thing in the U.S.
 
And there's no prejudice against people from foreign countries. It's just, but you have to consider why a law firm is willing to hire you instead of a U.S. attorney.
 
And that's especially true for entertainment. I apologize if that sounds harsh. I'm just trying to. I want to be honest with you about how difficult it is. So that looks like all the questions. I certainly appreciate everyone being on this call. I will be next week, hopefully, doing a call for a resume review.
 
I wonder if it'll be next week or next. I am still determining what's been planned. But the resume review is always a lot of help and a great time to get your resume reviewed. So I'll be doing that.
 
I think one of the things I would just say to conclude this is listening to everything you've heard today; if you are absorbing it and understanding it, it will make you a great attorney.
 
I do very well in law firms. I have so many people that write to me. It's not every week, but it's every few weeks. Had been successful following a lot of the stuff. And it's not that I'm some brilliant guy, just to happen to have been in this industry and committed to it for a long time.
 
And the lesson is when you commit to stuff, you learn stuff, including your practice area and law firms, and it just makes you better and better. I congratulate everyone for taking the time to be on this today. I know this is a very long webinar, but I think it will help you, and I appreciate everyone's time. I will be back next week, and hopefully, we'll do resume reviews. Thank you.