What Determines Success as an Attorney More than Academics or Firm?

Transcript

[00:00:00] today I'm going to talk about, something that, has a major impact on how people end up succeeding inside of law firms and, really in their legal career and it's our family and social background, and it's something, I think that a lot of people really wouldn't expect to, influence how successful you are.

[00:00:19] But in my experience, it's something that, has a major impact on your level of success and how well you're likely to do inside of a law firm. So it's very common for people to go to excellent law schools and, and then go to very good firms and then have. Legal careers that go nowhere. despite, what you would see in terms of their background is being, the people being very suited for doing well in the practice of law.

[00:00:47] And, you really can have every advantage on a silver platter, but none of this really matters if you don't have, values and, and a perception of the world that will support you doing well, in your legal career. And, and Frank, I, [00:01:00] clay, a lot of people don't happen and certain people come out of certain bags.

[00:01:03] Backgrounds without that narrative ends up doing them a lot of harm. So one of my, when I was young, maybe, 18 or 19, I guess 18, I was, living with my father and, and his, soon to be ex-wife and they were going through a divorce and, my dad was living in the basement and, I was living upstairs with, her son and a daughter and a soon to be ex-wife and.

[00:01:27] It wasn't a good situation. it was contentious, people weren't talking and, and it would just, wasn't a pleasant in the least. And, each day I needed to, go to the kitchen and pass them in the halls and so forth. And, then there was just, it was difficult and I was a high school student and, not enjoying myself and, in an environment where, I didn't feel accepted and, felt like an outsider, my own house.

[00:01:51]So one day I was, during all this I, my dad, obviously wasn't too happy about it. Neither. I was speaking with him outside. [00:02:00] and, and I just had an experience where I, walked in the kitchen and I dunno, my stepbrother says, don't tell him like, Oh, it's great. Getting a home cooked meal, from somebody who cares about you and having a mom or something.

[00:02:10] I don't know. But I was just, it, wasn't a pleasant, nice thing to say. And, my dad at the time, wasn't a, that happened. about his situation and his life. And, he, wasn't only upset about the divorce, he's in his early fifties and he felt that he had not, by any stretch of the imagination achieved as much as his peers from college and, law school had, and he felt that they were, much more successful than him and I made him feel bad about himself.

[00:02:34] And, and, he also, felt bad about us marriage collapsing. It was the second year. Marriage and, and he'd had a, a fairly good education and gone to Harvard for college and then, Michigan law school for a year and didn't do well there and, laughed. But, he just didn't feel good about himself, because of that.

[00:02:52] And what struck me at that age was, he had so many things to be happy about. he, had enjoyed writing [00:03:00] and drawing, playing tennis. he did enjoy the job that he did and, and, but he, so allowing, others around him and what their expectations have been for themselves to influence him whether or not he was happy or not with himself.

[00:03:12] And I think a lot of people do that. they look at, other people and they see how those other people are doing and they allow that to influence how, they're going to feel about themselves. And, and I think, everybody, wants to be around others. approve of us and love us and make us feel good.

[00:03:29] And we need, supportive others, to feel good about ourselves. And everyone strives to do, the best they can, you know, and to get others' approval. And I think, what my father was saying is he didn't feel like, he merited other's approval. And a lot of that came from, the environment that he had been in.

[00:03:46] And a lot of people on this call, I'm assuming, are, have. Worked very hard, their whole lives and, have, tried very hard to go to the best schools they could and, and be part of the best social groups and, yeah, no. And in going to a good college or law [00:04:00] school, in reality, what you're learning at any college or law school is pretty much the same.

[00:04:05]it's not going to be much different from any college, from college to college. what really differs though are what other people. around you, expect. And, the expectations of the people around you and your peers are really the reason to go to the best schools and be part of the best law firms and the best, social groups, because, different peers in groups will have different expectations.

[00:04:29] And if you're around people that have very high hopes and very high demands for themselves, and you desire to also fit in with those people, you're gonna you're, you're gonna. Gonna be trying harder and doing better and that's, and setting higher goals and expectations for yourself.

[00:04:45] And I can honestly say that, the choices that I made about things such as, where to go to college and where to go to law school and w firms to work out and, and things were in a large sense, influenced by my peers, if you can believe that. they, their, [00:05:00] what they thought was important were things that I picked up.

[00:05:02] And so it's like that with anybody. If you're around, peers that, have high hopes and high expectations, you're going to pick up those. And so that's really the whole reason to try to be part of the best, firms and schools and so forth has because of the people that you're going to be around and, achieving more of anything, is really, when it comes down to it is about just being around, people that you know, who set high standards.

[00:05:28] There's hand, and your standards are really going to be sat in a lot of cases, by your peers. And if you work in the best firms, that's going to help you. And, and, being in the best schools is going to help you set higher standards, and it's going to set your thermostat at, the level of what you expect to do and what you think is important, in terms of your own achievements.

[00:05:48] So when I was younger, for several Years. I had a, asphalt business around Detroit and, and one of the problems with any businesses, getting people to do the work and, and there were certain types of people that I could hire and [00:06:00] others that I couldn't.

[00:06:00] And I learned, some very, important lessons in that early on. And when I started in the business, the most obvious suspects, so people to hire were, kids that I knew and, all I need to do is, increase the amount of money I was offering. And I can always find, kids to do a work for me.

[00:06:16] So I would, go to parties on Friday nights. Typically I would do a lot of work on the weekends and, I'd stand around a keg and I talk about this money-making opportunity and I'd always find people to do the work and, I'd pick up kids, in the morning and we'd go out. And, the work was very difficult cause we, I tended to do like a lot of parking lots and they would be, there's no shelter, so they're just exposed to the sun.

[00:06:39] It's hot. And, we're working with tar and asphalt and so forth and, it's just very unpleasant work and it was actually common for people to disappear and leave these jobs, during the middle of them. and it was just very difficult. And at the end of the day, we'd often use gasoline to get the tar off us and it would burn and it's just not a fun job.

[00:06:57]so a lot of times I would have people work on [00:07:00] Saturday and then, and then they would, quit. And so I would need more people to help me on, the on, Sunday. And so I would go to parties and find people that are too. And, and so typically I would recruit people, parties every weekend and, and then, and try to find people that way.

[00:07:15]but there were lots of problems with hiring kids from, my own, from my neighborhood or kids that were my age and in the same social circles is, in the place that the kids that I was associating with. with, I'm upper-middle-class from middle-class kids. they didn't want to work, for their peers.

[00:07:32]they weren't making as much money as I was making. they, were concerned, that, how others saw them, they didn't necessarily doing, super hard manual labor and, and not only that, they wanted to, something in an office seemed more appealing to them and, and they did.

[00:07:47] Like how, the work made them feel how they felt like the work made them appear to their peers. And, because it was difficult to get those people to do the work I learned, AF after, one or two summers that [00:08:00] really the best place to get people to do the work was it was in, working class neighborhoods where, you know, where people, were willing to, were to do the work and then where there was more people that were hungry for the work because of how much I was paying.

[00:08:12]and people also. That appreciated that work. So a lot of the people I would hire would be in Detroit or in, white working class suburbs of Detroit. And, and when I would hire people, they would actually appreciate the work. They would, they'd be ready for work each day, many times. they didn't believe that they were better than the work.

[00:08:29]they wouldn't complain. they would, work that one day and then they work the next and, instead of feeling bad about themselves, for doing this type of work, or. For, me, I got some, they felt good about the work and, and they had a situation, that made their peers from better economic environments, not like to work, but they actually really liked to work quite a bit.

[00:08:49]and I, and when I was going into these neighborhoods, I would pay people much better and, and they were happy. And, and because they, other people around them thought that this is a [00:09:00] great opportunity and I was paying too. So much, and it was crazy to pay so much, they were supported by the people around them and, their expectations weren't that they were doing this job for a short time and then they would do something else.

[00:09:11]their expectations were more in the line of, this is something that is a really good opportunity. And so I realized early on that I was much better off hiring people that were from a background, where people around them supported doing the work, where they believed in the work than I was, hiring people that were not from those sorts of backgrounds.

[00:09:29] And, and people support it, around them, which is important. their environment, thought it was great and, and their peers made them feel good and so forth. So I realized, that, it is an important point that you know, how others see us and, and our work, determines in many cases how, we see ourselves and how much we appreciate at work.

[00:09:49] And, most of us want to feel seen in a positive light by others. in our jobs, it's. Very important that we're, people see us in a way that, you know, w we're approved of, and, and our [00:10:00] sense of self worth for most people actually is influenced by how others see us. we,  our jobs and so forth are important and they influenced, the way that we're seen and that, is a big deal.

[00:10:13] And, and I think that, deep down, everybody really wants to be loved by others. and so what do we need to do in others' eyes in order to be loved and approved of? And, and our self worth is based on how others see us. And a lot of times it comes down to the type of work that we're doing and how others see you.

[00:10:29] Yeah.  when I was hired people, they would often not work out, because, working, in the asphalt business, when I was hiring people from my own, my peers, it was not. Because it made them feel good and, and it didn't make them feel, high status in the eyes of others.

[00:10:44] And, high status means one thing to people of one background versus another. and that's just kinda how it worked in the asphalt business. Now, over the past 25 years, I've noticed that, one of the most competitive and demanding offers in the country to get into a crevasse screen and more hires, a lot of [00:11:00] people from the university of Iowa and, in other schools that are similar to that, not just there.

[00:11:05] And a lot of these people are from, middle-class to blue collar backgrounds and, firmly caravan could hire people from Harvard, Yale, and other schools, and that caliber at the top of their class all day. And they do hire people, but they also hired people. A lot of people that come from these sort of, these blue collar type backgrounds.

[00:11:23] And, in my limited experience, I've seen a lot of people that come out of university of Iowa, ended up doing very well combat and, and actually much better than a lot of people. from the best schools. And I think that, and one reason for that is, and I don't really know all the reasons, but I think that, for those people, it makes, the mix, they believe that it's a great thing.

[00:11:44] And they believe that, working there as something, from, that makes them look good and significant to their peers and their value system. it's compatible with that. And, and a lot of people that I've noticed known from top schools that go to work at crevasse, looked down on it.

[00:11:59]they [00:12:00] believe that, the hard work isn't worth it and, and just, and they, and they don't like it. So that's what I've seen. And I don't know, that's completely true, of course, but I've noticed that, and it's just, an anecdotal thing, but I believe that, the value systems, a lot of times with people, will determine how successful they are inside of a law firm.

[00:12:20]One of the things too. That's interesting to me, as I look at people from different law schools and different backgrounds and, people from Yale law school, are often, unlikely to value being a professor, or doing public service or working, for nonprofit then the graduate of an average law school.

[00:12:36] And, and I believe, that a lot of that comes from, the peers and the value systems that, and what's considered a good thing, from, for graduates. The law school and what people look up to and what, other people talk about and want to do. And a lot of the attorneys from yeah.

[00:12:52] Law school that I've known. and I know now, Columbus , are unhappy in major firms. And I think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that, [00:13:00] the value system of that firm, emphasizes different types of work and not necessarily that. And the school, gives people and their people.

[00:13:08] Ears have a different idea of what makes someone successful on where your fulfillment should come from. And there's also, the idea too, that, the school may be selecting people like that. That is general rule. that's something that I've noticed quite a bit, and I've also known, I noticed, in many cases that, many people, the most successful men and women, tend to need to prove something.

[00:13:29] A lot of times to their parents. there, a lot of times their parents may have made the choice. Field, but, they would be more loved or they would get more approval. if certain milestones were reached to be successful and, in a lot of times this approval never comes.

[00:13:42]even when the child grows up and becomes, much more successful than, their parents. we'll never, and, be as successful as it is a, get the love that they're seeking, and one of the things that, it's important for everyone to understand is, we, a lot of us don't really [00:14:00] understand what our value is unless it's reflected to us by others.

[00:14:03]we're told our values by our parents, w what should be important, and that's either reflected back to us with approval or disapproval. And, they will set expectations for us about, what is, and what is not important in our lives. and then the people. Or around, we'll center, our identities we'll, our identities will be formed by the way others see us and their judgments of us.

[00:14:24] And, if people approve of us, then you know, we'll feel worthy of love and have, be, had feelings of worth. And if they do not, we may start to believe that we don't have work and different environments will reflect to us, our values, depending, what sort of environments that we're in.

[00:14:40] So I think, and this is, what. that it really one of the most important things for you to understand and it will determine, and your success is one of the most important causes of unhappiness, I think is that when our internal value system dictates that we need to be a certain type of person to be successful.

[00:14:59] And then, we're not [00:15:00] that person. And we're uncapable of being that person. for many people, their value system may say, I need to have a family and be around people that love me. Me and approve of me and others for a lot of other people, it's, economic or social achievement.

[00:15:13]people believe, it's almost, I have a neighbor that, or an old neighbor that bought a Bentley convertible that was, fluorescent green. And it was just, and it's just crazy and that, and it almost seems to me that, he wanted that car because, there's, he needed.

[00:15:31] To, show he was worthy of love or something. I don't know. but a lot of times that may be what success means. Success may also mean, working with certain types of people or, working with a particular firm or having a certain title. and a lot of times people are very unhappy with their lives when they don't measure up to a certain value system.

[00:15:53] And this value system in terms of what's important will be in many cases. She's determined in most cases, by the [00:16:00] people around us that we're comparing ourselves to on an ongoing basis. And if we're not achieving what we should accomplish in our peers eyes, then many of us just become very depressed and very disappointed.

[00:16:12] And, and that's just not a good thing. you mean ask yourself, like how do people cope? And so when you watch people around you, in firms and, and your peers and so forth, you'll see, Lots of different ways. And one of my breasts friends, in high school died of alcoholism in his early forties.

[00:16:29] And, and I guess, what had happened to him is he just drank so much that, his heart stopped and, and he was in, from a very successful family. His father was a very successful builder and, his older brother was very smart, no, and around, very successful people. And, he went to a private school and I don't.

[00:16:46] I don't know why he was there, cause he wasn't the greatest student, but, most of his peers had gone, went on to very competitive colleges and were good athletes and, to other sorts of things. And he never felt really that successful, because of the people he [00:17:00] surrounded himself with.

[00:17:00]every day he was reminded, by his brother and his parents and all sorts of people that were around him that, he wasn't measuring up and maybe it was just because of his, internal clock. he wasn't able to. Really be himself. rather than play this game, he dropped out and he started smoking a lot of pod drinking and, feeling sorry for himself, which is something I think that a lot of kids do.

[00:17:22] And a lot of people do when they feel like they're not the person that they're expected to be. people do it in different ways, but they, they rebel and, and when they can't kinda reach that level and it happens to people all the Time and, you know, and when it came time to apply to colleges, he thought he was going to go to Michigan state because his family had, endowed a professorship in the, the other construction school or something or whatever it was there.

[00:17:49] They had some sort of program. And, but the school, forgot to flag his application, is the child of an important one and, the end or not getting in, initially, and then, [00:18:00] No. And then he was upset. He went to the university of Colorado, Boulder, without any special treatment, which is good that he got on there.

[00:18:05] But, once he was there, he just continued drinking and using drugs. And I was asked to leave and, and this downward spiral just continued. he never felt, the equal of his parents, peers, and family and other people around him. in my opinion, he would still be alive if, he hadn't, judged him.

[00:18:23] Self and his life, based on, the people that he was around and, men, belief that he needed to be like them. he was surrounded by very successful people. he needed believe that in order to be successful, I'm worthy of love. And, he needed to be like them. And, and that was what he was getting from his environment.

[00:18:40] And, you're getting something from your environment. I don't know what it is, whatever environment, near from you, you may be getting certain signals as well. And are you. Into them or are you sinking to them? other people, we'll sync to, we'll never be able to, get rid of the whole of their environment on them.

[00:18:56]That's too long ago. I, I would dated a, a [00:19:00] great lady that was, very smart. she was motivated, she was a beautiful and nurturing and, had all sorts of really great characteristics. And I really cared about her a great deal. And, in while she had all these characteristics, one of the.

[00:19:13] The biggest problems that she had was just this, she, someone else with an alcohol problem. And, every night she would drink and she would do the same on the weekends. And, and on the weekends, she would often, drink all day and, and every night, I didn't see her, only a couple of times a week, but every night she would drink a bottle of wine or two, and want me to talk to her on the phone.

[00:19:32] And it just wasn't that enjoyable because she would, become an incoherent and. and I don't, wouldn't drink at night and I just didn't enjoy it. And, and then she would get angry when I tried to get off the phone and go to sleep. this person was depressed and unhappy and, had all the money she needed, beautiful house car.

[00:19:49]she was very successful and was a great mother and, but the problem too is, was her that she was, using substances, like my friend and, the thing about her. That's [00:20:00] interesting that she was, from a devout Mormon, family and, took her vision very seriously. Her family took her religion very seriously and she had gone to BYU.

[00:20:10] and studied theology and, had all this, religious texts and so forth that were, Oliver, her, a house and she put post-it notes on it and we took it very seriously and, read it and I'd read all these books and studied it. And her family expected me to go to church each week.

[00:20:25] They expect her to participate in church. And, and so she'd done a lot of things wrong. according to the church had a child out of wedlock when she wasn't married, when she was younger. And, and then she, As she became more successful and raising a young daughter, she started to believe that the church was sexist.

[00:20:40] And so she ended up leaving and the church and, this, created, profound disapproval of her from her family and her peers. And, and she started, and didn't feel good about herself because of that. And she wasn't really living the life that her, parents and sisters and brothers and everybody expected to lay a love and she was depressed and, felt bad about [00:21:00] herself because of that.

[00:21:00] Yeah. And, and so then just like my friend, her value system was she needed to be a certain type of person, because of the people she was surrounded with. And then when she wasn't that person, she just, coped in with alcohol and other things. but the church, still had this ma major, it's very impressive.

[00:21:16] They had this  very good support system and people would still stop by to see how she was doing. they knew what was going on with her and they, but they would. text her and call her and, and I think she appreciated the interest in her, but at the same time, it reminded her that she wasn't, living up to the value system, of what the church is doctor with her.

[00:21:36] And, so the two of us ended up broken up, breaking up. And after that, she actually went back to the church, and became, started training for a marathon and then stopped drinking and, and became happy again. And, Thing is that just, she had a value system and that value system said, if you're not living in accordance with a value system, you're not worthy of, you're not worthy, you shouldn't be worthy of love and [00:22:00] happiness.

[00:22:00] And it was out of kilter. And, w she was out of kilter what that system expected and, and, doing that made her unhappy. so that example though, that I just, told, I. I think that, if you look at your own life and you see the ways that, your value system and the people around you, how they influence it may not be religion.

[00:22:19] It may be what your parents expect to maybe what your peers expect. but that value system will impact how happy you are. And, are you living in accordance with someone else's value system? And most of us are, most of us are, have been impacted by the value systems of our groups and what those groups think is important.

[00:22:36] And if you're following them, A value system like that,  you have to, you'll realize that, not being in a, following a completely may actually make you extremely unhappy, but it also can make you very successful. being around the right people, if he rise to it, my stepbrother, the son of my stepmom, the, the, both of them that weren't very nice to me.

[00:22:56]he ended up, he went into the Navy and then, came back, and, I [00:23:00] went to Michigan state for a couple of years and then dropped out and he was very excited to have gone to Michigan state. He'd gotten a GED in high school and, he left at the age of 16, I think, to roll in and enroll in the Navy, left high school at the age of 16.

[00:23:13] And, when he went to the Navy, he got disciplined and he felt successful. And, and he was, grateful, to have had that experience. And, and not only that, he felt successful incredibly. Successful. He got a position in the condom department and general motors, with only a few years of college and, ended up, being a successful executive there and having a good life and, and actually very happy.

[00:23:35] And, and his mother had been a secretary and never graduated from, high school and, and then, and he managed to get, tears and Michigan state paid for by the Navy. And today he lives in Michigan and, he's got. I've had family, a nice house, a good job and, and was very grateful for his experience and his environment, his mother, and everybody around him.

[00:23:55]just thought he was doing very well. And, and and, my other [00:24:00] friend of course is dead. the expectations, that our environments have really can have a major impact on us and what happens over the course of our lives. And. Even, whether or not we live or die in many cases.

[00:24:13]the value systems that we have, will determine in many cases how hard we work, and, and the level of achievement that we reach. And, when I started hiring people, the blue collar neighborhoods, in the working class backgrounds and so forth, I noticed yeah.

[00:24:26]that the people were different. when they were working, they would. Seeing and be happy they would laugh at jokes and they wouldn't be worrying about this, the same sorts of things and uptight, they were much happier. the people that were from, middle and upper middle class backgrounds and, they were, they knew what their role was, their environment supported them doing that  work.

[00:24:48]they saw things that made them happy. for example, going into a nice neighborhood sometimes to do the work, being by the water in different parts of Michigan and, and getting out of their areas and they really, were happy for their [00:25:00] jobs. And and a lot of that came from the fact nothing was different.

[00:25:03] The only thing that was different was what the work meant to them. and to them, it was, fun stuff. It was working in, different neighborhoods that they didn't get to go to was making a lot of money. It was doing, having a lot of advantages that, you know, there and things positive about the work.

[00:25:18] But their parents didn't necessarily think were positive.  I've seen, so many new people, drive themselves to insanity when they don't meet the expectations of their families. And I years ago I hired a guy who had grown up, in a very Orthodox Jewish family in New York.

[00:25:37]and he was part of this, Orthodox community. he certainly, It's religious, but he didn't want to, dress an all-black and do all the things in this Orthodox community dead. And, when he was 19 years old, he left home and never returned. and his parents, thought there was something very wrong with him.

[00:25:53] They didn't understand why he didn't want to grow a beard and, marry a woman in his religion and dress in the traditional [00:26:00] type of dress. And, and so in order to avoid that, he moved across the country to California, Talking to his parents and, and ended up actually, resigning from the bar.

[00:26:10] And, we went over to Asia and, spent years just wandering around and, and I think that a lot of that happened because, he, just the girl I told you about in the Mormon faith, he felt like he was incompatible with, he was.

[00:26:24] I was not living in a court of what was expected of him. anyone that wants to, and I talk about this a lot, can be very successful and, all you need to do is, you need to basically set a goal and keep working and, and, and not give up.

[00:26:39]and that's, typically, the recipe for being successful and you don't need to be, especially intelligent or anything. And if you really apply yourself, you can be successful and your everything, it's really, to some extent yeah. within your control, you can, anybody who wants to can be a lawyer or anybody who wants to con you know, go to college. [00:27:00]

[00:27:00]there's just a lot of opportunity. And, but the problem with that is, the world really is a meritocracy and, and you're, really, responsible for your actions. And if you don't, if you're not successful or you don't get what you want, the only person you really have to look at is yourself.

[00:27:17] And, you can be anybody you choose to be. in different societies in the past, people were held back by, their, their social class and where they were born. And, but in this particular, world, wealth and success and power are really all within your reach.

[00:27:33] It. you can honestly have, anything that you put your mind to, you can be very successful in business. You can do the same thing with entertainment. you can, people that apply themselves can do, a lot of different things and, even the law schools and colleges, they use, these tasks I pay Alside and, at CTA to try to make it.

[00:27:55] Okay. Everything about merit and, they want to make everyone take the same test. getting to do [00:28:00] best schools, not based on, being part of a family that went there for a long time, it's going to be based on merit. And, there are people want that things that are equal. one of the things that society does and, all societies do this to some extent, it happens in India and it happens in, all sorts of different societies is, we want.

[00:28:19] Diversity we want, equal rights we want, we want to make sure that the playing field is as equal as possible because meritocracy is, is just a major, thing that, of major importance to the society. if some groups don't necessarily get the best test scores, for whatever reason we may want to, not use the same measuring stick and deemphasize in these things that we try to use for it.

[00:28:41] Crecy in order to get them into, to advance them and that's just the way society it works. And, and then, even with that, a lot of times, there's certain schools like a Harvard neighbor's Chicago that have abolished the sat. So those, not abolished, but they don't require them anymore.

[00:28:57]and everybody wants to have, equal [00:29:00] wealth, access to wealth, prestige, and success based on. And, and that's something, that we really, that the society really believes in. And, if the SATs aren't fair, for whatever reason, then we don't want to use those. And so everybody wants to have equal access to success.

[00:29:15]the problem though, was what I think with the accuracy is under a meritocracy, people are responsible for their own success. So if you're not reaching your goals and achieving what, you're, what you think you should be doing, society holds you responsible. if you have access to education, but if you don't make the most of it, you may be left feeling like my father.

[00:29:37]someone that had certain advantages, but not to not reach his potential. And, and you may believe that, successes and possible, regardless of, the advantages you're given.  and then the other thing that's, happens is if you're not as successful as you think you should be, you may think there's.

[00:29:54] Something wrong with the system, and that there's problems, with meritocracy and it's not alive and well. and [00:30:00] so you'll then strike out, like you can see a lot of grips do and, and be angry at the system. You'll blame society. And you'll blame, that you need a new, a new solution.

[00:30:10] And, and you want to tear down the systems that are, and the symbols and, statues and other things that, you may believe are holding you back. And The keyer conflict though, within yourself and within society. if you think about it as is based on feeling, that you're not living up to the person or the, or what you should you think you should be.

[00:30:31] And, you may blame society. You may blame politicians, large companies, groups, and power and others. And, and what that does. And this is important is that it puts you in a position where, you're able to, blame others for your lack of success. And instead of placing the burden on yourself, which actually is where, it belongs, everybody has responsibility, and the ability to be successful, if they figure out the rules and apply [00:31:00] themselves and you're never going to succeed, by making others responsible for your success, it's something, or your lack of success.

[00:31:08] It's something you. You need to figure out and be able to do, on your own.

[00:31:13] I read a story about Steve being recently, Steve being, jumped off a high rise in Los Angeles and the age of 55, because he was depressed. And, when Steve being was 18 years old, he inherited a $600 million. he went to Harvard Westlake. School in LA, which is, considered, the most prestigious school in Los Angeles, by far, for a high school.

[00:31:35]and then he attended Stanford university. and then he dropped out his junior year to be a film producer and, and did produce a bunch of films that were successful, steeping, it was a very successful guy and he, had a child, with the British actress, was a bit Hurley. it was friends with, bill Clinton and.

[00:31:52] Lots of other very successful people and travel and all the best social circles was a benefactor of all [00:32:00] sorts of charities and very well-liked. but he also was an alcoholic. he had drug problems, he had never met even there's two children, one with, Elizabeth Hurley and he denied paternity.

[00:32:10]and then it was found that he was the father and then he had a second child will be some bonder, who is the former wax of Kircher cocaine. And. and, and also denied that. So there were some things that weren't, going on very well. so despite all this, he, wasn't a happy guy. and w what, why would you not be happy?

[00:32:30]if, all that stuff is going on in your life. and the reason is because, the person you believe you should be does not match how you feel inside. and obviously, something was very far out of kilter with him, for him to jump off a high-rise building and commit suicide and feel the need to abuse, substances, and so much.

[00:32:48]people believe that they need to be a certain type of person to merit love. and, and they may believe, that, they're not that sort of person. And so in terms of being, I'm not a psychologist and I don't know, what [00:33:00] was upsetting him so much and where, Things went wrong, but, obviously, being around all those very successful people and having certain expectations for himself, and was he, it wasn't working out for him.

[00:33:12]a girl that was working for me, too, not too long ago, had a husband who's a liar. And, and he left a very high paying job with a law firm, to start his own law firm. making, I know he was making probably $300,000 a year and I said, why did he do that? I asked her, and then she told me that what he said to her was that he was Persian and, Persians, refuse will never work for someone else more than a few years now.

[00:33:34] That's, obviously it would be a racist statement if it were, but if it's what, she said, he said, it's interesting. there's a Earl around in LA, there's this  huge, contingent of, A lot of them are in Beverly Hills, but there's lots of families that have co came over from Iran.

[00:33:50]many of them came in the late 1970s to early 1980s and, they all settled where, other, Persian settled and, and, and they're very, [00:34:00] the group that came over and I don't know, maybe it's just a certain type of person that came from Arama. They have a reputation for being, very good in business, especially real estate, and, and, And, they're very good business people and, and different groups have different expectations for their followers.

[00:34:15] And after his comment about our, after this girl's comment about her husband, I realized, and I just thought about it that I worked in, I've worked in two law firms in Los Angeles. And, and I knew three guys who were Persian that were, in my classes or, in the same age group, class chair and, all three of them.

[00:34:32]left, working in the law firms after a couple of years and, and started their own firms. And then they started real estate companies. And so I don't know if that's a coincidence or not. and then even a, a girl that I'd hired right at UCLA law school, had left to start her own firm after she worked for me for six months.

[00:34:47]I don't know, that all that's true, but then I was talking to another, Persian guy. And he said, he was going to leave his firm cause no Persian guy wants to work for firms forever. So if you think about that, I don't know why, and I kept [00:35:00] seeing this and this is also all self-reported and and you're talking about an ethnic group, so you need to be very careful about, not being called racist when you're just putting things together, people are telling you, but, I do believe, and I think this is true, just like the Mormon.

[00:35:15] Girl, I was talking to you about, different families and different groups of people. the people around them, form their expectations and, maybe the groups that have come over or the culture of Los Angeles in terms of people from that ethnic group, are that should start your own real estate company.

[00:35:31] I dunno. that would be crazy to say that, but I do believe that, the people that were around and the groups of people, that were from, well in many cases, Inform what you believe, makes you successful and what you need to do you believe you need to do, with your time and, and what you need to be.

[00:35:49] And I don't know that's always the best thing. one thing I could say is, what if I was, uniquely suited, to be an attorney. And, and I was Persian for example, and, being an attorney and work in a large law firm. [00:36:00] But what if, everyone in my family believed that you never want to be offered maternity.

[00:36:04] Very long and I should never aspire to. And what if I learned or what if I learned from my friends and families and others, that the only thing I should do would be an entertainer. And that would be, I was expected to do that by my environment. And, what would I do? if my whole environment was telling me to be an entertainer, that's probably something I would end up doing.

[00:36:23] And so it's just something to think about that. what happens to you, in many cases is determined by the people around you and by you trying to. Do what you believe you need to do to, to earn their love and to be accepted by them. one of the things I noticed is that, children often realize the UNIM, realized dreams and ambitions of the parents.

[00:36:42]I told you earlier that my dad flunked out of law school, and then I went to law school and didn't flunk out, tiger woods. His father wanted him wanting to be a golfer. And, when he wasn't a tiger woods became on and. there are countless examples of, actors and, athletes, lawyers, [00:37:00] doctors, and others who, who, never realized are these kinds of ambitions, but then their children, ended up doing.

[00:37:06] And when the parents have an idea for success and happiness, the children may have the same thing as well, and that's important, and, and maybe, with me going to law school after my father, didn't do so well during it. Yeah, I just wanted to fix maybe a part of my family history.

[00:37:22]in conclusion, and this is, been a fairly long discussion, but it is important. your value has come from the people around you and your happiness and your lack there off maybe dependent and may be coming from the people around you. And, the people around you may, tell you what you need to do or how you need to feel, in order to be successful in your feelings of, feeling.

[00:37:43] While, and good, may have more to do with the, what's going on with them than, than what's going on with you. And, our communities, are going to color your values and you're going to get different values depending where you live and the people you spend time with and the work you do, the peer groups, you're part of your [00:38:00] background, how you're raised.

[00:38:01] And, it really has, a lot to do with everything. And I heard, I think it was on television, actually. It was. A person. I was, saying that his only options, where to, to either be a professional athlete, a musician or drug dealer when he was, growing up and, and that was his value system.

[00:38:21] And if he'd grown up in a different type of neighborhood, he would have had another. And you really need to, think about where your value is coming from and what, how are people, impacting. how you feel about yourself and what you should be doing. I see people, on a regular basis that, go into law firms and just don't have the values to succeed there.

[00:38:41]they're smart enough. but they don't, they're not around people that are supporting that. in my case, for example, like I never came out of a law firm environment or my parents didn't and I had no one to really provide me, advice and so forth and had I. Add that, I probably would have stuck with it longer.

[00:38:57] And, in your thoughts about [00:39:00] leaving the practice a law may, or staying in it may have been influenced by, or your peers or your parents or others, and, and it's just how it works. And, and there's so much, people are so much in happiness that, happens in the world and people are so unhappy because, their careers are awful and, under, out of alignment with, what they believe they need.

[00:39:20] To be in there or maybe their lives are, and, and if you're surrounded by a certain type of person, you're always going to be reminded that, you could be that type of person and the  people that you surround yourself with, really are going to have a lot of impact on, your level of happiness and your level of success.

[00:39:36]when I was growing up, and my family, there were lots of problems that I talked to you about earlier. It was divorce or something. There's abuse and subfamilies and so forth. And, and so that's depressing and when you're Academy and you can handle in different ways, but what I did and what you and other people may do in a similar situation is, I avoided, spending time with the best kids.

[00:39:56] I, the kids that were the most successful, I would, [00:40:00] my, like I told you, my best friend died of alcoholism. So I would, deal with kids that were equally unhappy are coming. out of those things, because I really didn't want to be reminded of, what I was doing or what I wasn't doing.

[00:40:11]And when I got into college, I did the same thing. I joined a fraternity with, a lot of the most troubled kids. And, because I didn't want to be reminded of the things that I could do better or, what my, I didn't want to be reminded of what I wasn't doing.

[00:40:26] That was important. And and I would. Processing stuff, that was happening and, and that's just how it works, with a lot of people, the big thing I think is that, you need to expose yourself and you need to develop your own value systems and really, realize that the value systems of the past may have held you back.

[00:40:45] And, you don't necessarily need the value systems of others and, you need to realize about it. The reasons you're doing things may have to do with the value systems of others and a need for their approval. And, and to feel, a certain way. [00:41:00] And, would you be happier if you weren't living under those value systems and how have those value systems helped you?

[00:41:05] They may have helped you quite a bit. when Anthony Robbins, was younger and getting started with self-improvement of business, he was invited to be part of a group of various. Important men, that, flew around the world and private jobs and they associated with each other and discuss different ideas and, and, and this was a membership group and, the, the, everyone had to pay something like, a quarter million dollars in annual membership to belong to her because they were flying around in jets and so forth.

[00:41:33] And, staying in expensive places and Robins, I guess didn't have. The money at the time and, and had, scrounged it up and the person who asked him to do it, said, regardless of what you may know about, self-improvement, nothing's going to change it for the better, like the people you spend and your time, and associated with.

[00:41:48]and he said, the values you pick up from them are worth more than it will cost lost you. to, to spend this time with that much. I thought it was very interesting. And yeah, according to Robbins, who's still part of this group. It was the best [00:42:00] investment he ever made and, it changed.

[00:42:02] Which is life far more than anything he could have, by reading books, because he was associated with, very successful people, that had, very good values and a lot of different things. And, the dynamic going on, beneath the surface of, each one of our lives is, am I worthy of love for myself and others?

[00:42:19] And, we believe that we're worthy of love. based on, what we see. we need to do, to earn love from our environment. And, if you don't feel worthy of love, you may have allowed others to do a number on your mind where their value systems. their voices may be a constant presence in your head that are questioning, every move you make and your value to the world.

[00:42:40] And it's just not fair to do yourself. And, your real value is only gonna come. when you abolish other's expectations and allow yourself to be happy, With whatever you choose to be, you need to have a value system that makes you happy and that you can be satisfied with. and it will determine what happens to you.

[00:42:57] All right. I'm kicking questions now. So let's get [00:43:00] started. the first one is, let's see here. I lost my job in November of 2019. I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. I reviewed 20 plus websites a day and attempt to network on LinkedIn and ACC. I've had about six responses for interviews, but nothing has materialized any suggestions.

[00:43:21] Okay. that's, a good question, certainly, you're obviously doing, something wrong, in your, your search. I don't know exactly what type of work that you do, and but you said ACC, so I'm assuming you're looking for, in-house work.

[00:43:34] I should also look at LA. Crossing by the way, which is a very good, source of positions. but, one of the things I would say, is that, if you're, if you've been unemployed for as long as you have, which at this point it looks like it's almost a year, you're doing something wrong in your search.

[00:43:51] And the thing that I recommend people do is, looking, looking just at, positions that are on job boards, can be helped. [00:44:00] Full, but at the same time, you're probably limiting yourself to a great extent because you're only applying for jobs that lots of other people are applying for.

[00:44:08] And over the past several weeks, because of this pandemic, there have been a lot of layoffs. because there's been so many layoffs and people are losing their job, you're competing against a lot of people. And the longer you've been unemployed, the harder it is going to be for you to get a job.

[00:44:22] So my recommendation is, what you really should be doing is you should be applying. For firms in places and don't necessarily have openings and you should be applying to places that are in your industry, that you've worked at before. And, also to, make sure you're on top of that.

[00:44:38]doing the best you can in terms of finding, those types of positions is really, going to be in your best interest. if you're only looking at positions that other people are applying for, it's just that much more. Competitive. The other thing you need to be doing, I would recommend is this, where you are watching this webinar, or.com, there's all sorts of, videos that I've recorded in the past and so [00:45:00] forth that talk about how to track down jobs, where to look for them, because looking at websites for jobs each day, it's not just the only way to get jobs.

[00:45:07]there's lots of very proactive stuff you can do that I teach there may also be issues with your resume and what you're saying on there. most employers, unless they're in-house are looking for specialists. And another thing you can do too, is you can also be geographically flexible. certain markets, are very difficult to get jobs in, there's age discrimination and all sorts of problems.

[00:45:25]you need to be, very, careful in terms of how, the way you're applying for jobs, you need to be strategic. that's something that I would recommend doing, but, obviously, what you're doing, is not working and. You need to think in terms of other directions.

[00:45:39] Another thing too is, not everybody is cut out for practicing law, and or wants to do it. And if that's the case, there may be other careers you can try. people do exceptionally well, doing with legal skills, doing other careers. So that's, one of the, things I'd recommend.

[00:45:55]Okay, let me see the next question. There's a lot of questions here. let's see. [00:46:00] okay. You're talking something about, let me see here. let me just answer this one here. I constantly compare myself to others and find myself feeling inferior often. What can I do to stop making these comparisons? one of the things I would recommend is, it's important to, not be always worrying about what others are doing.

[00:46:18]obviously, Humans are tribal animals. And, and when I've noticed, and I've talked about this a lot before is, attorneys that are in major legal markets, where there's just a lot of competition and everyone's comparing themselves for the most part seemed to be, in my experience had been, are a lot unhappier than are much more unhappy than attorneys that are in smaller legal markets.

[00:46:38]many times it's the legal market you're working with and it's the people you're surrounding yourself with. and. That's something that is important for you to consider. who, who's setting, who are you comparing yourself to? and that's a huge problem.

[00:46:51]if you're basing your opinions on what others think, then you're essentially saying that the other people are more important than me, and I'm going to base how I feel about myself [00:47:00] on others. And that type of thought process may have been important when, we're tribal animals where, pure.

[00:47:06] Banished from the tribe you couldn't eat and he would die in the wilderness and that's probably something that's programmed into us from a long time ago. But, it's, something, that you need to be, very aware of, that, can impact your happiness.

[00:47:18] And it's very hard to escape the opinions of others for me personally. yeah. It really, depends on who you surround yourself with and, in surrounding yourself with positive people. I can make a real difference. okay. Let's see here. peer group is not as successful as I am, and I feel like that's keeping me from rising up to the next level of my career, but at my age, I have no idea how to make new connections and surround myself with people at a higher level.

[00:47:43] Any advice? Yes. you need to get out and, meet new peer groups and surround yourself with other people, there's yeah. Very good question, because, I'm sure you're aware that, being around, certain types of people can keep you down. there's, if you're around people that aren't successful, they're going to [00:48:00] want to make you, unsuccessful as well, because if you succeed, that's going to make them feel unsuccessful.

[00:48:05]having a very strong peer group is very important. I remember when I was in college, when I was in high school, I had a friend that was trying to get me to do LSD and he kept trying to get me to do it and kept trying to get me to do it. and I know. Or did it. And, and then he explained to me that, he felt like it had really messed him up and, and he wanted me to try it because, he felt like he needed someone else to share that.

[00:48:25]now it's that's just absolutely insane. he meant like it had done permanent damage to him, which, I doubt Alex to you in to permanent damage. So maybe it would, but, and he wanted basically to drag me down with him. So the peers and the people that you surround yourself with really can have, a negative, a major negative.

[00:48:41] Of impact on you. And, and the same thing with positive people will set, values for you that are very positive. that's important. Okay. I am to work in a law firm like Cravath, but I didn't attend a top tier law school. I found it very interesting that people from the university of Iowa do well at Kerbeck.

[00:48:57] I have applied to graft and several large firms, but have [00:49:00] not gotten the interviews. Would you recommend, I apply again, the highlight of my modest roots. I try to downplay it in the past, thinking it would work. Against me, no. the people that go to  all the way from university of Iowa, they tend to be at the very top of their class.

[00:49:12]it's not, and it's not something that a lot of people can do. and having modest roots, there's nothing wrong with that, but to get into some of these top New York and international firms, you do need to have, a certain type of background and, but having a mind background is good.

[00:49:26]if you have a certain work ethic and you work a certain way, that's going to, really, and many expenses will work to your advantage in the long run. Of course it will. Okay. Let's see. How did we develop a new value system later in life? I feel stuck in my ways, even though I'm willing to change my outlook on life.

[00:49:43] So you develop your value system, by the choices you make. everybody's born with, I always think that, people are born with a certain amount of genetics should born where their family's genetics, but then you could say, Some of your own too. And so people have the ability to do, some things on their own and to make their own decisions and, [00:50:00] and to create value systems.

[00:50:01] So you create your value systems by, deciding what's important to you. And I have certain things, in my life that are important to me. my value system is based around, trying to help attorneys, legal careers, and jobs. It's all based around, having a, a happy home life about being a good father about, Meditating and exercising daily and things like that.

[00:50:20] And so you develop a value system based on, things that are important to you. And a lot of times there'll be, formed by other people. And I will tell you that, at my age, I for so long was captive by other people's value systems. just absolutely crazy. I spent a good portion of my life, trying to live up to what others expected to me and I, and to some extent I see.

[00:50:40] Still am because I'm living in a, a large, expensive city, w where, honestly, it would probably be easier to live in, a place that was didn't have as many, people with bad values around. So your value system is extremely important and the people you spend time with, and, and I've noticed, even in my community, like where I live, there's a [00:51:00] lot of people with very bad value systems, just a lot of them.

[00:51:03] And, and I. Certainly, don't like it and, and I think it's bad. the schools, you go to have a value system. I know I live in Malibu and there's, the schools, there's some very bad kids that go to the Malibu, public schools and, and that don't go to other types of schools in the area.

[00:51:18] And there's, and there's people that are, have bad values or live around me that think in bad ways. And I think the value system, the people you spend your time with is a huge. Really important and there's, and can influence, your happiness and your success and your contentment and all sorts of things.

[00:51:34]I try to, once a day, at least, connect with people with good value systems and I try to, avoid people with bad value systems and keep them out of my life. And, and it's important. okay. The next question is, let's say who got to get, and all these questions about value system are usually we don't get as many, question.

[00:51:49] Things about the extra mood or about other things I could see, my family tries to be overly involved in my affairs and it's really frustrating. I love my family, but they are getting in the way of my career [00:52:00] growth right now. I live close to home and I enjoyed here, but I'm thinking of moving away to distance myself from them.

[00:52:05] I've read some of your articles that it's hard to get hard in the city if you don't have any connection to the area. Yeah. what would you, what I would be up against? I went to college and law school in a home and never lived in other States. Do you have any tips for getting hired? Situation. if I'm moving to a city with non new connections here, people move cities and move to places all the time, with no jobs there, you certainly should be applying to places, that you are, firms and so forth in that area.

[00:52:31]that you want to work in, but, overall, I think that, you definitely, can get hired in areas where you don't have a connection. employers are, out for their self-interest and. They're interested in hiring, people that have, certain types of backgrounds and, and certain skills.

[00:52:47] So you just need to find an employer that has a need for your skills. it is easier if you're living in an area, much easier if you actually get up and move to an area to get hired there. but at the same time, you don't want to leave, a job, with, without [00:53:00] that.

[00:53:00]Okay. Let's see. Let's see here. okay. Any recommendations for, a senior healthcare attorney with no direct farm experience? Who would like an in-house pharma or consulting job? Unlikely to begin on executive MHA program at a top school at a I'm working the same farmer would say work top, school.

[00:53:27] I'm interested in a certain school. yeah, if your healthcare is a very active practice area and, it's actually always a good practice area. And, one of the reasons that healthcare tends to do so well is, it's a practice area that is, where there's a lot of money involved.

[00:53:43] And anytime there's a lot of money involved in a practice area, people can do very well in it. And to the extent, you go and you get an extra degree, in healthcare law or an MHA program, that's a great idea. I place healthcare attorneys all the tim