Why Law Firms Do Not Like to Hire Attorneys From Most Practice Settings Other Than Law Firms

Transcript

[00:00:00] today's presentation is about, why law firms. Don't like to hire attorneys from practice settings other than law firms. And. this, one of the things I wanted to say that I was, I, I've been talking to some people that have been on these webinars and, write a lot of articles and stuff.

[00:00:16] And it is, people that, participate in this sort of thing and, listen to these, webinars. it's a very. A helpful thing for you. it can make you a much more effective attorney. It can really help dress dramatically, improve your career. I've been doing this for 20 years and I have people that, our partners in major law firms really study this stuff that I've written and.

[00:00:37]have had really good career. I hope that, that you continue to listen to this stuff and come to these webinars because it is very helpful. So today I'll be presenting this topic  I present this topic, I will, open the floor to questions and take. as many questions as everyone, is interested in listening, it's an anyone has, and I'll try to answer them in as much depth as I possibly can.

[00:00:58] And then after, [00:01:00] the questions, we will, Finish. so that's about . Okay. so let's get started. So this is about why law firms don't like attorneys from other practice settings, other than law firms. And the reason this is an important topic is because, if you are in a practice setting, that's not a law firm, and you want to go to a law firm.

[00:01:19]you need to understand what you're up against. the other thing that reason this is an important topic is because, if you do leave a law firm, it's very difficult to get back. you need to really understand, this topic and it's a good, it's a good topic and something, I think that every attorney, relish now, So for the majority of law firms, especially the larger ones, most of them aren't going to be hiring attorneys coming from practice setting other than law firms.

[00:01:45] And there's some exceptions, but from a law firm standpoint, if they have to choose between hiring an attorney, that's in a law firm, in a practice setting other than a law firm, it's generally not going to hire. an attorney from the different practice setting, it will [00:02:00] prefer to hire, the attorney, from, another law firm.

[00:02:04] And, I've been trying for decades, for over two decades to place attorneys from practice settings, other than law firms, in law firms, because I make my living, placing people into law firms  it happens and I certainly do it, on an ongoing basis. every. several weeks I do, but it's very difficult and it's, it is a rarity.

[00:02:24]it's like that for the most part. it's very difficult to get people from non law firms buy into law firms and of course there's exceptions, but I'm going to cover those. as I've said before, when a law firm. Is, making any types of hiring decisions.

[00:02:38] It's asking for questions. And sometimes you could say, there's five questions that's answering, but really there's four questions. And the first one is, can you do the job? the next one is whether or not you can be managed, the one after that is whether or not you can do the job long-term and then, then they're also asking themselves if they want, if you want the job and, there's really.

[00:02:59] Two types of [00:03:00] categories of attorneys, that, may be coming from different practice settings. And the first is, those who, have already left, worked in a law firm and left. And then the second would be, those who have never worked in a law firm. And I'm going to cover, both of those today.

[00:03:15]So the first one is the attorney, who has worked in a law firm and then taken a position in other practice settings.  the big problem with attorneys that have taken jobs in other practice settings is, many times, they're going to assume that you did that. because you had, hot performance issues inside of a law firm and it's not always performance issues, but, they will suspect that may be the case.

[00:03:36] And the belief that, you had issues with the law firm, for him, for whatever reason, wanting to be in a position where, hours were an important, so your performance might have been judged less harshly, or you were unhappy. So you took a job inside a company.

[00:03:50]where you want it, less oversight, more free time, all those sorts of things. and that's very common for attorneys to leave law firms to go into different practice settings, where they have that option. and the [00:04:00] thing about working in a law firm, when they're asking whether or not, you can do the job, the problem with working in law firms, I think is that.

[00:04:07]you're judged and, based on, how much time you're working, a law firms going to require you to work a lot of hours and, to be accountable for all your time. And when you have to write down all your time, regardless of what you're doing, if it fits business development, people write it down.

[00:04:20]and so most attorneys that leave law firms to go to work in different practice settings. they do that because they simply do not like working the sorts of hours that law firms require.  so if you, leave a law firm, and go to another practice, then you do get more control over your time.

[00:04:35]it's very common and, many companies and many, law firms for people. in many companies  non legal settings for a law firm settings for people to leave at five or five 30. it's actually very common. I, there's a large software company, the, over the Hill close to where I live and they're gone every day and to empty it.

[00:04:55]five or five 30 and it's a, it's a huge company. they have general councils and [00:05:00] legal departments and, so it's very common in, practice areas where you don't have, in, and, outside of law firms not to have to work the same kind of hours, and that's why a lot of people do it.

[00:05:08] And a law firm does mean, crazy hours. And, I know on a lot of, a lot of accountability for your time, one of the funny things I remember when I, I was quitting the first law firm I worked at, and when I quit, I was just giving them all these reasons for quitting, which no one should ever do.

[00:05:23]the partner that I quit. with said to me, I said something about, that it was sad that another attorney, hadn't made partner, just seemed like a lot of that. I would be investing a lot of my time in a place if I wouldn't, if there was, for, five, six years or whatever it was that point I had to go.

[00:05:39]and, he said, you have to remember the attorney made partner built 3,200 hours. And the one you didn't make only billed 2,800 hours. And I just thought that was completely. insane. that you would be judged, based on just that few number of hours, so law firms require you to write down all your time.

[00:05:56]you have to be accountable. so people leave because of that. and that's part of [00:06:00] doing the job as being accountable for your time. And people don't like that. even our own company I've tried to, because I come out of a legal environment, I've tried to have people write down their time and send me their hours and people hate doing it.

[00:06:13] And then they'd make, do it for a couple of days and then stop doing it because I want to get a sense of what they're working on. People just don't like being accountable for the time. And if that's what doing the job in a law firm me means, The other thing, that, is important in terms of doing the job is when an attorney is coming from another law firm, there's always a presumption that they're doing specific, work and a specific type of work.

[00:06:35]regardless of, whatever, how good the non law firm practice setting is, most companies really have, no idea of the type of legal work that's being done by most, attorneys inside of companies. they know what, they know what their attorneys and law firms do because they see their work, but they don't necessarily know.

[00:06:54]What's going on with attorneys outside of law firms, in different practice settings. So it can [00:07:00] vary, major law firms typically, if you're working there, they require a certain type of work and they know you, they know if you've been there a certain, like the time that the work is going to be a certain quality, and they know all these things, but they don't know that, for coming from a non law firm employer, they don't know the caliber of work you've been doing.

[00:07:17] And a lot of times attorneys will. pick up that habits. Now there are exceptions to this, of course, the us attorney's office, certain companies, their patent departments, or, there's lots of exceptions, but this is a general rule.  another thing is, that you need to remember is that, to get work in a law firm, an attorney needs to do work, that, that's acceptable to people giving them work, whether it's outside clients or the law firms.

[00:07:41]outside clients, if you don't do a good job for them, they fire you. And if you're doing work for big clients, they will, expect very high quality work. And, if you're working at a really good firm, they know that the. The firm's going to expect really high quality work. And so all these people are, of.

[00:07:57]All these people are, that [00:08:00] you're working for are constantly going to be, measuring, your performance in a major and a law in a large law firm and looking to have certain expectations. and a lot of times if you're working in another practice setting the law firm, Really has no idea whatsoever about, the quality of work you're doing.

[00:08:18] And so that kind of spooks them a little bit. And, if something, that many times will, create issues. in terms of them hiring you and, especially if they know the actual attorneys you may be working for, and the other thing is, the it's important is, you need to realize that, lawyers really don't walk around, with ratings, given them by their former employers, the only.

[00:08:38]there's certain rankings out there and things like law, dragon, and, chambers from different, I think Lawdragon the one that ranks actual attorneys, there's, and there's rankings, the best attorneys lists and so forth, which are good rankings of attorneys and show who's a good attorney, but for the most part, most attorneys are not on those lists.

[00:08:53] And so the only way that a law firm has of knowing the quality of the work you do is based [00:09:00] on the type of, legal environment and law firm you're working at and how good, those particular attorneys are, at that, in that legal environment.  so different, obviously working at a, a major am law, 100 law firm and the most prestigious with the most prestigious attorneys and Spain, staying there for a length of time shows that you're a good attorney.

[00:09:18] There's nothing else besides that. The most law firms even need to know. So that's one, one of the reasons that's really helpful, and, the big thing is though, is that, when attorneys typically go, in house or to another practice setting, their legal skills, deteriorate, a law firm.

[00:09:35] Needs to consistently turn out very good work and is always making sure that things are well proofed  look good. that the logic's good and that they're the client isn't there's no malpractice and so forth. And they're just very careful. And there's a lot of people that tend to be involved and, other practice settings, law firms just don't, have that.

[00:09:53]they, they. they don't know that in a different in-house, so many in-house companies, have extremely sophisticated legal [00:10:00] departments, but for the most part, the most sophisticated work done by in-house legal departments is farmed out to law firms. and in-house attorneys, are often, giving that workout to others.

[00:10:10] So that's just something to understand.  another thing, that's, when you talk about doing the job, and tied up a law firm, is that. it requires you to develop your own business. that's a completely different model than, in, in different practice settings.

[00:10:24]as an attorney gets more senior in a law firm, they're expected to develop their own business. and almost every law firm, this is considered, the job and part of the job in advancing. And if an attorney can't develop business, as they get more senior, they can't do the job. And that's one of the big things is, when you're in a law firm, and you're, and you stay there for a length of time, you're making contacts, you're out there hustling for work.

[00:10:47] You're, doing the things you're watching other attorneys and how they get business. And so that's a skill that law firms value. now it's not something that all law firms require. there are law firms where you can become a [00:11:00] partner and be very successful without any business because of the fact that.

[00:11:04]the law firm may have institutional clients and there's work for you to do and so forth. But, that's not generally the case. So in law firms know that people typically will leave and go to other practice settings when they get more senior, because just because they don't have really the ability to develop work on their own.

[00:11:20] So that means they may not have the networking abilities. They may not. beginning, referred work from clients, and referrals and so forth. they may not be liked or respected enough by other attorneys in the legal community to, to get work, or they just don't have that special sauce needed to generate work.

[00:11:37] And there really isn't a special sauce. anyone can generate work and I can. I think I would be happy if I haven't done it already. I should give a presentation on how to get business, but, and it doesn't matter who you are, any attorney can, but, it's just, those are things, reasons that a lot of times attorneys will leave firms.

[00:11:54]and so that means, if you leave, you're not in a position to do that. So you may not be able to do the job. [00:12:00] The other thing about doing the job inside a law firm means you just need to be, interested in willing to work with lots of different clients. many attorneys are going out to the government or public interest organizations do so because, they're only interested in working for one type of client and whose mission that they really believe in.

[00:12:17] so that's important to think about, you need to, w you want to be, as a law firm attorney, you have to take many different stance on things you can maybe be doing. Plaintiff's work one day defense work, the other. and a lot of times attorneys like to don't want to work in a law firm because they want to be one.

[00:12:33]clients advocate and they don't want to have to represent people with, different kind of points of view about different things that they may not believe in. many clients, leave law firms because they don't like the type of clients that the law firms have.

[00:12:46] So that's important, to do as well, to think about. another thing, that's very difficult about, working in a law firm, and that, a reason a lot of people leave  can't do the job is because, Working in a law firm means, you [00:13:00] have to be able to tolerate a lot of uncertainty regarding advancement  keeping your advancement are remaining with the firms.

[00:13:06]I was on a webinar not too long ago. And someone said to me, something that I thought about, they said, you seem like you've been a great lawyer. Why don't you leave a law firm? and I thought about that, cause actually I did enjoy practicing law and and even, when I got out, not too long ago, I.

[00:13:20] W, was realized I was good at it cause I did some, anyway, but, and enjoyed it. But the point is, I gave it some thought and I was, my answer was very straightforward. I was, when I was younger, I was just terrified. of the uncertainty, the difference between working 2,830 200 hours, we're making partner B having to leave a firm.

[00:13:39]it's just that the in certainty was something that scared me a lot. I saw partners losing their jobs. I saw people, not making partner that I thought you make partner. I saw people advance for political reasons. to become partners in big firms that probably shouldn't have been, I saw, associates, get better cases because they were friends  others not have any [00:14:00] work.

[00:14:00] And, it just seemed very, uncertain and frightening to me. And, the thing was, is, that's actually probably not a good reason to leave, if you're really good at what you do and you're confident and you put your head down and work. most of the time people that do that, have competence in themselves do well.

[00:14:16] But from my standpoint, that just wasn't what I was doing or with the way I thought when I was younger. so I decided I didn't like the uncertainty and wanted to do something. And this is something that. lots and lots of, senior associates and others, inside of law firms do, they just stay, they lose, they can't tolerate the uncertainty and, just many people do that.

[00:14:38] And, so they choose a different, practice setting because of that. And law firms know that attorneys who leave them, probably we'll leave again, when they don't like the uncertainty as well.  let me just see here. One other thing too, that I think is important.

[00:14:51]that there's not just, the idea of uncertainty, but. you have to understand that there's, lots of uncertainty because there's a lot of, there's ups and [00:15:00] downs inside of law firms. there's a lot, many times, law firms will just like fire people for work slows down.

[00:15:06]whole groups of attorneys lose their jobs and major firms all the time, which is just completely devastating. a lawyer could, bill, I've seen attorneys, bill, 3000 hours a year for several years in a row. And then all of a sudden, a major case settles. And they're essentially out on the street unemployed, after 10 years in a law firm and, but this is just how it works.

[00:15:26] And, partners can lose your status as equity partners and people could be advanced, or not advanced with little explanation. And so there's just a lot of uncertainty. and working in a law firm and it can be scary, but honestly there's uncertainty everywhere. maybe not so much in certain government roles and so forth.

[00:15:42]anytime you go into an environment where there's uncertainty, you're often compensated, in relation to the amount of security versus insecurity. But, and that's one thing that kind of how law firms work. in addition, when you work in a law firm, you're always going to be part of a, extremely competitive environment unlike [00:16:00] many, unlike any most legal environments, they're very competitive.

[00:16:03]attorneys will compete for work. They'll compete for clients hours. recognition and there's just all sorts of political games that are played. People undermine each other. And it depends on the law firm, but a lot of times people will leave because, they just can't, they can't tolerate it.

[00:16:20] And, many times law firms know, You know that if you left, you may have left because of that. Yeah. they believe that, you may be unhappy for that again in the past will repeat itself. So that's another reason why they consider people from other environments and not be able to do the job.

[00:16:35] And then, also in a law firm, there can be a lot of, social components that people will leave, because if those aren't met, one might be, to be expected to, socialize with, clients and other attorneys often weekly, some, law firms that may require you to go out with clients.

[00:16:51]practically or potential clients on pitches or just, existing clients, practically weekly, you may have to socialize with other [00:17:00] attorneys outside of work in order to get, work from them.  many attorneys just don't want to be part of this.

[00:17:04] I know, one woman that's a very talented, associate in Los Angeles and she's. she's I don't know, 15 years out of law school  she has an advanced to counsel or anything because, she just, she keeps her work in her life, and she just doesn't, kiss up to the right people and doesn't.

[00:17:22]go out and socialize, after work with clients and so far, she just leaves at the end of the day and there's a penalty and a price to pay for that. so you have to socialize in most law firms to get ahead. Whereas, inside of a company, you may not have to as much depending on the company or the government as well.

[00:17:37]another thing inside of a law firm, that's important is doing the job, requires always being available. Including on weekends and holidays. in many companies or other, government things, you go home and that's it. But. many law firms will require their attorneys to work, on the weekends and holidays and, pretty much through ready to come into the office  time or work or do the work at home and lots of attorneys leave because, [00:18:00] they're, unable to control their schedule.

[00:18:02]and, it can be very stressful. it's actually extremely stressful. for me, from what I remember, you really have no downtime and there's just always deadlines and things. I, it was every day of the week practically sometimes. So you need to be, really on top of that and that's just can be very stressful.

[00:18:18] And, the other thing is just travel. you may have to travel that's something, that law firms, you may have to dare that people don't like and say leave. And then, many times you have to do work, that's beneath you. that's also terrible.

[00:18:30]many times, you may have to, do work that you think is demeaning or beneath you, or you may. you may be required to do work, you just don't always want to do, but this is part of the job. And, turning down an assignment can not be fatal to, to working with someone.

[00:18:44] Again, I was working with an attorney at a major, San Francisco law firm that. had always gotten perfect reviews. And then, and then she, they were talking about her being partner  apparently she turned down an assignment at some point and a couple of years earlier.

[00:18:59] And then [00:19:00] they said that was like a big black Mark on our record. it's just, you can't, you have to always be. Willing to do work, no matter what, and, that's, an important thing. So those 10 things really are, major reasons that, law firms, many times think you can't do the job, but the other job, but another thing that's really important is.

[00:19:19]they also will assume many times you can't be managed if you left a law firm, an environment to go to another practice settings. So that's another reason they get nervous about it. And this simply means that, you're not gonna complain to create issues in every law firm, there's people that kind of support the law firm and are cheerleaders for the law firm and others that, maybe against it or indifferent and, law firms want to keep people.

[00:19:44] Around that are happy and support the firm.  if the attorney doesn't seem all in, with the firm and what they want, they're going to be very difficult to manage.  attorneys often will leave law firms and go to other environments because, because of the things I talked about above, but they also may have conflicts with other attorneys [00:20:00] or.

[00:20:00]their hours or other management issues. And, if the attorney is, if any attorney is seen as undermining the law firm, or creating issues, they're just difficult to manage. And many people will leave the law firm practice setting, that are having a hard time or law firms.

[00:20:14] And there are. Plenty of attorneys. And, when I say plenty, I would say, 50% or more that, have issues with working in a law firms and just don't like their jobs and, it's, and there's the 50% that actually really like it. And so they're trying to keep those people around, but if you'd leave a law firm and even, partners in major, very successful firms, many times don't like their job, but if a law firm.

[00:20:37] Keeps people around, that are negative and so forth, and can't be managed. It's going to hurt them. That's in the law firm. knows that if you left the odds are that you were probably someone that was down on working in a law firm, for whatever reason. and most attorneys will disqualify themselves during interviews when they'll say things, FaceTime is essential and, I didn't understand why it mattered where I did the work.

[00:20:58] So they left a law firm. [00:21:00] Because of that reason, sometimes they'll say things like, I was doing a lot of work for different clients and I wanted to put all my energy into one client. many times they'll say this is a very common one, about a crazy boss and it wasn't a good relationship.

[00:21:13] So they'll say that. And it's really the attorney's responsibility to do the work. That's asked to them, in order to find someone new to work with. And so leaving the practice setting. because of a bad boss, isn't necessarily a good thing. And it's a reason, the law firms, many times won't bring people back.

[00:21:30]they'll also say things like, they didn't make partner, and therefore they didn't see a future working in a law firm. they'll say they got burned out. they may say that it was competitive and all these things are just or the morale was low, are just, symptoms of what a law firm is like.

[00:21:46]if you talk negatively about the reasons you left a law firm, then law firms almost always are going to assume that, you can't work in another law firm. And so these things that I've just, mentioned, getting burned out or the competition or [00:22:00] the, all these things are things that.

[00:22:01]attorneys say all the time and when they, even, when they do get interviews and, practice settings that aren't, I mean from practice settings that aren't law firms in law firms, people will say things about a lot of travel being involved. they'll say the law firm is very social and, they had to spend a lot of time.

[00:22:18] My attorneys outside of work, they'll say they were frustrated because they were dealing with a boss who was a micromanager  just, the problem with a law firm is. most law firms, especially the good ones, have a huge amount of people that they can hire from.

[00:22:33]and for most jobs. And so they're very. I'm eager to bring in the right people. And, when they have, when they, if you're, interviewing with them and, they want to, and they're interested in you, if you say things that show that you might be hard to manage, it's going to be difficult.

[00:22:49] They'll also say things about, disorganized. And so they left for a different practice setting. they may say stuff about busy work or not getting the right experience. and all these things, you're expected to fix those where you're [00:23:00] at possible and leaving the law firm environment is not necessarily the right decision.

[00:23:05] And that's how the law firms think about it.  everybody, is unhappy in certain aspects of a job, but the idea is that if you were unhappy before. you're talking about things about a lot from that typically won't change. And, if you work, and if you have morale issues and so forth or different things that you didn't like about a law firm job, the odds are that those are gonna repeat itself with the new place  good employer, we'll hire people, a good law firm.

[00:23:32] Employer will hire people that, they know we'll buy in. And the worst thing that can happen is, someone will quit and say, you promised me that there would be no travel or you promised me it wasn't competitive, or you promised me or. you said it wasn't going to be like this because if someone comes in with those sort of expectations, after being in another environment, the odds are they're going to leave.

[00:23:51] And anytime you set yourself up with those sort of expectations, and you're coming from another practice setting, the law firm, if they know what they're doing will [00:24:00] typically avoid you, because, you're, the odds are you're going to leave or you're going to have, be very difficult for them to manage.

[00:24:06] and, the ideas, law firms, just the idea of leaving to go to a practice setting. the law firm will assume you're just not going to stick around. a law firm is a business and so they have to hire people. hiring's a lot of work. they have to interview you, they have to talk to you.

[00:24:23] They have to, they have to, introduce you to people in the firm and it costs money to get you up to speed with our clients. And it's bad for morale when people leave. And law firms need to hire people that are likely to stick around. And, if you think about it just from a business standpoint, If you're coming from another practice setting, the odds are pretty good that you're not going to stick around.

[00:24:44] And most of the time attorneys don't, haven't gone to another practice and they come back almost always, they leave. I've very rarely seen someone, stay very long, almost all of them, we'll never, we'll leave the idea, the reason is because, once you get outside of a law firm environment, [00:25:00] and you start working in another type of employer, what you're going to realize, or what if you're on that position is that, you're not going to have to most often deal with the same sort of stresses that exists in a law firm that I discussed earlier.

[00:25:10]you're not gonna have to deal with writing down your hours and. th the severe competition and the advancement and the uncertainty and people will get comfortable in another practice setting and they'll want to find that comfort again. the idea of most other practice setting.

[00:25:23] So is that they're not. Efficient managing lawyers. Most of them are, law firms though, are efficient at managing liars and work product. Whereas other practice settings typically aren't. So that's just something to think about. you're looking for many times an inefficient environment where you're not going to have to be as accountable.

[00:25:39] You will have to be accountable in a law firm and that's the problem. and so once people come back, they start planning their escape. Once again, No, the thing is, that's interesting is when a couple breaks up and tries to get back together after a long absence, abs after being apart for a long time, that rarely works out.

[00:25:57]there are things that they may have missed, with each [00:26:00] other, while they were apart. but when they get back together, all the same things that made the relationship network in the past, will come up again, the same things that annoyed them are going to and know them and, so they start auditing their next escape.

[00:26:12]and they may also be angry about that, the past breakup and lack of trust and so forth. And yeah. in the same issues remain. So it usually doesn't work the second time either. certainly there's acceptance to that, generally it doesn't, one of my mentors once told me it was very interesting.

[00:26:26] He said never rehired anyone. And despite his advice, I actually did this numerous times. And one thing I'll tell you is that every single person that I ever rehired again, and left again and not only that, but, they did the company a lot of harm because, they were continually unhappy.

[00:26:44] They undermined people, in one case, one person, stole left and then stole a bunch of my employees. So it's just, they all left again in short order. So if somebody leaves one, they're going to leave again and you just need to, Stop it. And so that employers that have, that [00:27:00] are seeing you come from another practice setting that you've left, left and gone to different practices and want to come back to a law firm.

[00:27:06]if they're smart, they're going to, many times avoid. No in most attorneys who leave law firms of other practice settings just will leave again. It's just, it's, the same thing. they left because they resented the demands and that time the, whatever it was and they're going to leave again.

[00:27:23] And that's something you need to be aware of. so that's, that. So that's something, to think about. and, it's very important to that, w when attorneys are going back to law firms, many times from other practice settings, they'll say, they can bring in their own business, or they're going to be, able to do that the next time.

[00:27:39]and many times, most of the time that doesn't happen as well.  so working in a law firm, it's about all these things. it's about developing business. It's about, it's about willing to work on many different types of clients. It's about, doing the caliber and the amount of work that's required.

[00:27:54]these are all things that, that, that a law firm requires that people will, many times leave, [00:28:00] because they're not, Can getting, being able to do that in another practice setting and, the uncertainty and, being in a competitive environment, these, all these things, are present when you're, when you've left a law firm.

[00:28:12]and when you go back to a law firm, the socializing, being available, on weekends and holidays, all these things. And so these are some of the reasons that people will tend to, leave again and. and pretty much, every time I've seen someone leave, they end up, leaving again.

[00:28:28] And when they go to another practice sentence, so travel, and then it's doing kind of busy work or work. That's no fun as well. Okay. So the third thing  then there's one more, and then we're done is, law firms will often assume that you won't stick around, if, stick around a few, left a law firm to go to a different practice and want to come back.

[00:28:48]there's nothing to say, that someone who doesn't like these things can't be managed or, and so forth, but, many people, who leave just won't, Ever come back again or, whatever, we'll leave again. because if somebody left, the law firm [00:29:00] for, they're probably gonna leave again.

[00:29:02]and because of these limits, and so forth, th the, not want to, do all the things that kind of law firms. require. and the other thing is they're gonna assume you probably don't want the job. that's what I would say. one of the most important things is, cause, lawyers I've seen many times I've, Then contacted by attorneys.

[00:29:21]all the time and including, friends of mine and other people. And a lot of times they'll say things like, I can convince them that I want, that I want to work there. That I'll be a good employee. And they basically do that because they want to make money and they're not.

[00:29:35]when salaries always go up and then, the salaries stay lower and in-house, or other environments people started thinking, maybe I should go back and try to make more money or they need a job and they want to go back to a law firm. And Law firms, candidates will say all sorts of things, to try to convince people, that, they want the job.

[00:29:53] And, they'll really, act like they do. But, the idea is that, law firms are, working in a law firm is unique. it's [00:30:00] its own. As I've told in this presentation, it's a very unique thing. if an attorney wants to come back to that, the odds are pretty good.

[00:30:07]if they try to convince an employer that the employer is not going to believe them, if you went into public interest, academia or government, for example, the goals of public interest organizations are completely at odds with the type of work that a law firm does. it's just, it just, doesn't, there's just not the same.

[00:30:23]and, people that are that passionate about certain ideas and I've left are probably not going to want to work in a law firm. the same thing with academia. academia, is not. the same sort of thinking it's not as crisp, it's not as direct, it's, more theoretical and it's not the sort of stuff that typically will convince courts, of ideas, or, the sort of work that, is done in, corporate departments or anything else.

[00:30:47]government positions can be incredibly slow paced. I know people that work, in the,  Armed services and different government organizations. And I have some of them tell me they don't work more than two [00:31:00] hours a day. a lot of it is just making up reports and trying to look like you're doing a good job.

[00:31:04]there are some, incredibly slow paced government positions. Now, many us attorney's offices and so forth are, are in. Yeah, clerkships and, other government positions are very AF TA and other things can be very good. But, there's some that aren't that good. And the idea is if you've gone to work in something other than a law firm, law firms really do believe that, especially in these, some of these other practice settings that, you're just not going to want to, submit, expose yourself to all this kind of stress of a law firm again.

[00:31:33]but. Because of the salaries, many attorneys will often try to come back and work in law firms again. And, many times I'll point out the attorneys, that, they don't look like they want to look in a law firm, nothing about their resume or their current resume makes it look like they want to work in a law firm and they'll say, I can fool them and I'll convince them, I'm interested in this.

[00:31:52] And. generally law firms are much using art for this, your interest reflected and where you should be at as reflected based on the [00:32:00] choices that you've made. Now. I'm not saying that, if you couldn't get a job in a law firm where you didn't know what you're doing in your search, that, there were reasons for that, but at the same time, you need to make sure that.

[00:32:11]you need to do your best to really, convince someone that you want to work there. Okay. So the final, thing we're going to cover today is the attorney. Who's never worked in a law firm,  only worked in another practice setting and trying to get, the ability of those attorneys to.

[00:32:26]get positions with law firms. So I've already covered, people that have left the practice setting. And this is just, for you, if you've never worked in there, and this is a much faster part of the presentation. but, I will cover it real briefly if you've never worked in a law firm, the law firm has absolutely no idea whether or not you can do the job, whether or not you can be managed, Whether or not you did the job long-term and whether or not you really want the job.

[00:32:49] And those four things are, very important. And, they just have no idea. if you can do the job in most cases, if you're coming from another practice setting now, a federal clerkship and some other things are, [00:33:00] are certain government offices and certain in-house companies are. there are exceptions, but in reality, a law firm just has no idea, what your training has been like in another organization, whether it's government public interest and how some, the standards are different.

[00:33:16] And just not the case with law firms. there's a pecking order between law firms. They, as I said earlier, they have a good understanding of the types of attorneys and the quality of attorneys coming from other law firms. And they just don't have that same other understanding where people are coming from different practice settings.

[00:33:31] And the other problem is, that, especially for, if you've never worked in another from,  law firms will often assume, that you're just not qualified to work there. that the problem is it's very difficult for law students and new apparent attorneys to get positions in law firms compared to some other practice settings.

[00:33:49] So if you didn't get a job in a law firm, during the summer, for example, they will wonder, why you weren't working in a law firm during the summer. They will be concerned about that. If you didn't get, if they [00:34:00] know that well in most new attorneys, coming out of law school and so forth, typically do not turn down or very rarely will not turn down an offer from a large law firm because of the salary, the, the potential to save a lot of money early in your life, or the, the potential to, pay off loans and so forth.

[00:34:18]they know that, very few people will not do that. And if you weren't able to get a job, they will suspect, or if you didn't do it, they will suspect that you may have bad grades or bad interviewer your personal problems, or just didn't want to do it. but the main thing is, as I assume, you probably, couldn't get the job and therefore can't do the job.

[00:34:36] if you. where some are associated in a big firm and you got an offer, they will assume that you can do the job, but, but if you don't have any, meaningful law firm experience, they have no idea,  whether or not you'll be able to, meet the demand of a law firm, which are, billing a certain number of hours doing the work quality of work, working, for multiple partners, socializing, being able to relate to clients, doing the quality of work, which [00:35:00] is a big one.

[00:35:00]law firms tend to have very high quality work compared to many other legal environments. being trustworthy, saying, doing what you say you're going to do, being able to work the right number of hours  come up with solutions to client problems and developing at the same pace as your peers.

[00:35:16]the problem is what happens in law firms as law firms, when, young attorneys go there, regardless of what law firm it is or what part of the country it's in. whether or not they're a summer associate or first chair. there's certain people and I dunno what it is, but there's probably in my experience, I would say, at least in the law firms I worked at maybe between 10 and 15% of the people were just completely incompatible with working in a law firm.

[00:35:40] Like they had no business being there and some of those people get, flushed out during, summer associates and other people, that happens, even after they've been a summer, so they joined, they just, they're just not the right sort of people. And so if you've been through all of that, and you've worked at a law firm for, a year, two years, three years, [00:36:00] The law firm knows you're the right person.

[00:36:02]but if you haven't been through that experience, a law firm is taking a risk that, you may, be one of those, 15% or more of the people that just are completely compatible with the law firm. so that's part of the problem. And then rather than, take the risk, many just won't hire So I see, attorneys with no law firm experience who join law firms all the time and many fail. I would say, a much higher percentage of them fail then, then people that are joining laterally from law firms, they just, they may not have the training. they may not have looked at learning the work habits.

[00:36:32]they may have been able to rise to the expectations of the law firms. and rather than risk this, many law firms just won't hire them. that's, how it works. they won't. they don't want to get into it and, they don't want to risk it.  it's just, it's too bad for morale.

[00:36:45] There's just all sorts of issues, but it takes partners time trying to bring them up to speed. That's not necessary, just so many problems. And so there's no reason for them to do it. the other thing that's important is if a law firm. if you're coming from, [00:37:00] another practice setting, a law firm really doesn't have any idea of whether or not we manage and, the best way.

[00:37:05] Really to tell if an attorney is manageable by another law firm is how long they remain with their previous employer. if, in that lawyers law firms, if you were at a very prestigious law firm or a good law firm, or, a well-regarded law firm in your city or market for a certain length of time, the law firm knows you're going to be manageable.

[00:37:23]and, but if a law firm hires an attorney that has never worked in a law firm, it's not going to know if it's manageable or anything about his performance. That's just, how the person will take orders. there's certain people that just refuse to, w are very bad at taking orders.

[00:37:36] They don't follow instructions or. They hear what they want to hear or, there's just, it's just what it is. and then, you have to be able to take criticism. many law firms are exceptionally, critical, of people's work. I remember, when I was at this, one law firm, there was this partner and he'd been trained by, anyway, his previous for him, he'd worked at a huge LA firm and, He would [00:38:00] with all the first year associates and thankfully, I didn't work there as a first-year associate.

[00:38:03] I had lateral of the firm, but with all the first year associates, he had this thing where he would intentionally come in and try to make them cry. I'm not saying that he was intentionally doing it, but almost everybody who would talk, this first year is, would cry. He would come in and he would, close the door.

[00:38:19]the critique would be just harsh about, their work and everything that they were doing. And he was doing that to get them to PR to improve and to be, exceptional. I think he was breaking her spirit personally, but, but that was his training method. And so you have to be able to tolerate that, in a law firm  very few people, that's not something that a lot of people.

[00:38:39] Can tolerate, our attorneys learned, take that kind of criticism and incorporate and get better, but not many people do. there's other practice settings or people that aren't attorneys, many times have a very difficult time. with the type of feedback and you have to learn that, and that type of feedback is generally given, in the most prestigious law firms, to the most talented attorneys, [00:39:00] oftentimes because, the law firm Watson to improve, the law firm doesn't know if you're a team player, and or someone likely to make trouble.

[00:39:06]there's always going to be people that a law firm will hire that could be, negative or, when they, if the person doesn't do good work or there's problems with the work, they may become negative. Or they may just not like the law firms. So the law firm doesn't know that, the law firm doesn't know, if you're coming from a practice setting that isn't demanding is demanding of your time.

[00:39:23]the law firm, no. if you're willing to put the FaceTime required, and do that, the law firm, won't know if you're willing to work with a broad variety of people. If you're used to working with one people. So most law firms, are very predictable. and, if you don't have a law firm experience, the law firms going to be suspicious and worried you can't be managed.

[00:39:42] The other thing is law firms. Also, if you've never been in a law firm, they don't have any idea, whether or not you're going to be willing to do the work long-term. And the only way to really tell if someone is going to thrive, remain in a law firm is that they've already done it. many attorneys, work in law firms and immediately, reject them [00:40:00] and, start looking for options just as soon as they start. some people just instinctively, react that way to law firms. I, I was amazed, I'd worked in. I was working at, a New York law firm in Los Angeles, but then I went out to the, the New York office.

[00:40:14]and it was in the firms no longer an assistant who was called Dewey Ballantine, but I went out to visit, some of the, we, I know we went out for Christmas party or something and for all the new associates, there was a big event and I met all these over a week. There was this indoctrination event, but they, I, every, almost everybody I met was already talking as a first year associate about.

[00:40:35] How they wanted to leave the law firm and how soon they were going to leave and get this in-house job. And many people just automatically are looking for something else When they start. And, I was like that. I literally was looking, before I've been practicing more than three months, in a law firm, after, Doing a clerkship, but I was looking at, options about alternative legal careers and it's just a major risk for law firms to hire someone [00:41:00] who's never worked at a law firm because they don't know if they're going to lie.

[00:41:02] if they're going to reject the law firm environment, The final thing, is that, they may believe if you're not working in a law firm, they may not walk the journey. If the only job you've ever had have been a non law firms. most law firms are gonna believe that, this is because you don't want to work in a law firm to begin with.

[00:41:17]I speak with law firms. attorneys all the time, who've taken positions, doing public interest work and prosecutor's office and law professors and who want to work in law firms now. And the problem is once you've gone in a different path, You've effectively demonstrated. This is where your interest lies and law firms are most likely to be interested here.

[00:41:35] I see this a lot from, graduates of sometimes a lot of people from Harvard and Stanford. I'm sorry. Yeah. Stanford and Yale and things like that. Like they'll take these jobs and public interest organizations or, and working side of academia and things.

[00:41:50] And. and then they'll try to come to me and I want to get a job in a law firm and you have to look at it from a law firm standpoint. if the person's already done something else like that, the odds are, they're probably not going to [00:42:00] stay. And, in the, in law firms want to hire people that really want the position.

[00:42:04] the one, the final thing I would say is that, the only exception, of this kind of rule is, and there are exceptions and these are important exceptions. So if anything I've said to you so far is, depressed you about getting a job at another law firm, then, this should hopefully, take care of that.

[00:42:21] But. The only exception is really for clerks, some prosecutors and attorneys in each practice area. I place attorneys all the time from coming out of different practice settings. and when I say all the time, very often, multiple times usually per month, so it's not like everything I'm saying is, Written in stone because it's not, if we did a, a clerk clerkship, like for a judge right after law school, you can generally get a position, your odds are dramatically increased.

[00:42:47]and this is even, this is through me as a recruiter. and most clerks can get positions and, with a law firm, but the odds are increased dramatically for a summer associate at the law firms. So if you've been a summer associate. then, it's very easy for [00:43:00] the most part to, and then you did a clerkship to come back and do, it got a job at a law firm because it shows that's where you want it to work.

[00:43:06] It's even easier if you've got an offer. if you, Did a federal district court or in pallet clerkship, that's very marketable. A state Supreme courts are marketable. Even local courts are marketable. If you want to work here in that area. and after a few years, typically you don't want to do a clerkship for more than two years, because then it starts looking like you might want to be a career court, which actually is a pretty good.

[00:43:28]But, but if you clerk longer than two years, it's going to make it look like you're no longer interested in working in a law firm. law firms typically, would like to see our clerkship limited to, no more than two years. If you're in a niche practice area, you're very marketable many times, even if you don't have any law firm experience.

[00:43:45] So those niche practice areas, the main one is patent prosecution. most law firms will hire patent prosecution. Cooters coming out of, non law firm environments. now larger ones tend to be a little bit more competitive to get jobs with, but, smaller firms [00:44:00] definitely will hire patent prosecutors coming on nontraditional environment.

[00:44:03] I bet I've never worked in a law firm, other practice areas where I've had lots of luck placing people, even recently, or healthcare, executive compensation, healthcare, they hired people from hospitals, from the government, from executive compensation, many times from accounting firms, Sherry often even the largest firms are Rissa.

[00:44:23]food and drug from the FDA, sometimes pharmaceutical companies, all those are marketable without law firm experience and there's other niche practice areas too. even, any practice area you can think of the more niche, it is, the better, even, some forms of corporate work and, other things.

[00:44:40]if you're in a niche practice area, and then difficult for the firm to find people like you, as a general rule, then, you'll, we'll be marketable. So you just have to think about how many attorneys are there, like me in the market. And if there's not a lot like you with your experience, and you're very marketable because law firms, how else are they going to get someone like you?

[00:44:58] And then you have to think about, [00:45:00] geography, if. you're in a certain geography and where there's a lot of people like you. What about in other geographies? so one of the great markets right now for me is obviously it's been Ohio. I think it's a great market.

[00:45:10]there's a lot of opportunity there and not a lot of people are interested in Ohio for whatever reason. I think it's a great state, but, cause I'm from the Midwest, but, relatives in Ohio, but I. I always enjoy myself there. So if it gets cold, but even then it's nice.

[00:45:24]but anyway, but, the certain markets where people are much more marketable than others, so that's something to think about. there's also exceptions. in other practice areas from the attorney's experience might be very niche. when, and, when there's high demand in the economy, in when corporate is very busy, law firms may welcome people back in for men house, as long as I haven't been there too.

[00:45:44]it's not, You know that common, it's actually a little bit difficult, even when the economy's good because they do assume you'll leave again. And, but it happens,  I've done place numerous corporate attorneys, in-house and law firms from in-house law firms.

[00:45:59]and then I've also [00:46:00] seen law firms, hire people from their client. the, almost every major prestigious law firm out there that you can think of, the, if you take the top 10, most prestigious law firms, a good portion of them. I've seen them, the law firms hired people from them and, it doesn't happen a lot.

[00:46:16]but if you're in house and you're working for a law firm and the law firm is amazed by your skills and so forth, and then, you approach the firm, that can happen too. it doesn't happen a lot, but it happens.  and then the other thing is, when you're with the government, former players, executor's government appointees and elected officials, law firms are more than happy to hire, former prosecutors.

[00:46:37] They get hired all the time, and the most prestigious firms advanced to partners and some of the, the best attorneys in the country, are former prosecutors and actually never worked in law firms until they took a law firm job. Our government appointees, an elected officials. former judges are hired all the time.

[00:46:58]former assistant us [00:47:00] attorneys, other Iran ranking, state and government officials, can always find, positions, with the government. after, with law firms after completing public service, None of that is really too difficult. Anyway. So that's the conclusion. I will, that's the presentation.

[00:47:15]if you're interested in working for a law firm though, that the best thing really is never to leave.   then if you do want to go back, making sure that your experiences as niche as possible, one thing, you just need to, be very careful and hopefully follow her advice.

[00:47:28] So I'm going to, I take a quick break. And then when I come back, I will answer all the questions you have. You can ask questions about the presentation or anything to do with your career. I'm more than happy to answer it. And then if you have follow-up questions, I'm happy to answer those, as many questions as you guys have today, and I'm happy to answer them all.

[00:47:48] And, I will be back in one minute.

[00:47:51]Okay, let's get started on the questions. And, just so you guys know, all the questions are anonymous, so you can ask pretty [00:48:00] much whatever you want. I can't see your name or anything like that. so I'm just trying to, But you guys know that, but any questions anyone has, happy to answer now, start answering them right now.

[00:48:12] So the first question is, hi Harrison. I came across your article about the dark side of going in house and I find it very interesting. I'm an in-house lawyer working at a glass packaging producer, the fourth biggest in the world. And I've started the role. About four years ago, I was previously a corporate associated with a very prestigious firm in Portugal.

[00:48:29] I realized from quite early on when I changed. To in-house that I would end up going back to a law firm. Again, I decided to stay year after year for these past three years, because I've been given great opportunities that are not see myself having a law firm. However, last year I decided it was time to go back to a law firm and I'm feeling all the difficulties you listed in your article.

[00:48:48] And it is actually very frustrating. as I know that I am far more qualified.  technically yes, commercially than many liars. I know working in law firms and I'm trying to keep my hopes up and have [00:49:00] considered other possibilities, including working abroad. Can you give me advice? Yeah. So my advice would be, it's going to be very difficult for you to get back into a law firm, because you've shown, that.

[00:49:11]you're interested in, in a, in another practice setting and then you committed to that practice setting and, their perception is that they don't know anything about, your skills and they will assume that, that they have deteriorated in that you're pushing the most proceed in the most, complex work and so forth out to law firms and not doing it yourself.

[00:49:31] And so they're going to have all the doubts I've covered in this presentation, which will be,  that you may not have been able to do the job that you may want not stay, that you may not want to be managed or, all those sorts of things. So my advice really there's a couple of pieces of advice.

[00:49:46]the first one is to, try to see if, the people that you're giving work to, outside law firms would be willing to work with you and hire you. And, there's a possibility that they might. you should [00:50:00] see what you can do with that. And, if you've done. Very impressive work for them.

[00:50:03] And they see you as a very hard worker and someone who works much harder than you need to and does work. That's much more thorough than you need to. then the odds are fairly good that they may be interested in you now a barring night. if you can't get a job doing that, I would contact the law firm where you were a corporate associate in Portugal and see if you can work for them.

[00:50:24] And then I would also potentially, see if there's, other law firms, in Portugal that might be interested in, you haven't said anything about whether or not you're working in the United States, or anything along those lines. so I don't know, but, I would try to contact other law firms and then the biggest piece of advice I can give anyone that's coming from another practice setting.

[00:50:45]anybody that has anything in their background. That makes it difficult for you to get a job, whether it's where you went to law school or your experience, or a period of unemployment or, whatever it is. all it means is you just can