Which Type of Law Firm Is Best for You and Your Career: Main Offices of Large National Firms, Branch Offices of Large National Firms, Midsized Firms, Boutiques, or Newer Fast-Growing Firms?

Description

[00:00:00] Okay, so we're going to get started. So today's webinar is one of my favorite topics about the type of firm that people should join because there's a lot of reasons that I liked this topic so much, but one of, one of the, I'll just tell you a quick story. And I think I've told this before.

But one of the things I've noticed is out of all the people I went to law school with, and that I kinda met early in my career, the people that went to large law firms and the biggest law firms in the main offices of the large national law firms, most of them, not all of them, but the substantial majority of them are no longer practicing in law firms.

And the people that started in smaller law firms, meaning they were in some cases, I don't know if the word is blessed, but they were lucky enough to get jobs in law firms that weren't big law firms. Those people actually ended up getting staying in the practice of law. And 20, 30 years later, they're still practicing the law firms and having good careers and the people that went to work and large law firms weren't able to do when you're looking for a position, you're typically choosing between these different types of firms. You're talking about main offices of large [00:01:00] national law firms, branch offices of large national law firms. Mid-sized law firms boutique law firms. And. Faster growing law firms.

And so what I'm going to do today is I'm going to talk about each of these different types of firms. And then after that, I will take questions. And I typically take lots of questions on these calls. And I'll take as many questions as anybody has, whether it's about this or anything else they to this.

I believe that the type of firm that you select whether early in your career or even a little bit later can have a major impact on your career. And it's extremely critical. It's most people, when they make job choices, they make them without an understanding the differences in the types of firms and impact and the impact those choices will have on the course of their career.

And and they affect both partners and associates, but I believe and from what I've seen in my career, that that the choice you make your career will actually often fail and not get started because of this reason, rather than, more so than any other type of reason.

[00:02:00] And the differences in these firms can revolve around the power dynamics in terms of how the law firms distribute power. Am I going to attorneys who work there and they impact your compensation the job security your side of job satisfaction the training opportunities and the future movement.

You'll have the ability to view in the future. So I'm going to discuss those and I'm also going to discuss the pros and cons and a chart and at the end of the webinar. And then and it's very important. I think that you're aware of this and really that you make career decisions in line with the types of firms, because it's going to it can really have a major impact on what happens to you.

And and it can impact you many times a good attorney will end up having a bad career because of these choices or a good attorney can have a good career making the right choices. So the first choice that you have the first option is working in a main office of a large established law firm, which is in many cases, what people always are aspiring to.

But as a recruiter I see, people trying to get into these firms all the time. They [00:03:00] typically get the most applications. They are often very old, so a lot of times they may be, a hundred plus years old. And and a lot of cases, they're no different. The names are always the same and are very.

Very similar. There's a lot of reasons people want to join these types of firms and why you may want to join one. If you're a law student or a fear even a partner in a law firm, I call partners all the time that are, could be in their fifties or sixties about working in one of these firms with, at a smaller firm.

And many times they, most of the time, they're there to jump at the chance. And the reason people want to work in the largest and the most prestigious firms is because often because they have very important work, so they typically will represent the largest clients with the most money to spend.

But the biggest matters they'll often pay the highest salaries almost all the time. The profits per partner are how partners compare firms and how associates often compare these firms. So they often have the highest profits per partner. They have big brands. So when you're a client and you want to if you're a client and one of these firms, clients just as [00:04:00] S associates and partners are very proud of the name of the firm that they work at.

So our clients, so clients will throw around the firms that represent them all the time and clients will actually fall into tiers based on bragging rights. So the size of the firm, so they can be. Very good places to work and to hire. And then for associates the largest firms typically provide very good training.

The reason the biggest offices of the biggest firms provide the best training is because they typically have the most important work. And because they have large matters and large clients, those clients can afford to have them spend a lot of money writing long briefs and doing research or fact checking documents or working on very distinct aspects of things.

And then there's typically there'll be a whole level of junior associates checking even more junior associates work who be checked by mid-level associates and senior level associates. And the work becomes very detailer at it's expected to be a very high quality and and learning to serve large demanding clients and really to work at the highest levels of [00:05:00] legal profession.

And and so that's one of the real benefits of working in these large firms. They also offer a lot of career mobility. You can always if you go to one of these major firms it's much easier to go to a smaller firm or a sized firm many times because those firms are hiring you based on knowing that you've received a certain level of training from those firms in that the longer you've been there, the more that the product and the way you're thinking is going, you're going to be standardized.

So just. Going to a good law school means something. It means something even more to go to work in a large brand named firm, and stay there for a period of time. Because if you do that, then future employers are gonna know that you have a certain level of training just going to, sometimes people think I went to Yale law school and then I didn't do anything for three years.

So I worked at public interests and stuff. Law firms are going to think I'm a good attorney. And that the fact is that where you went to law school after you get out and you've worked in an employer for a few years, this is actually much more irrelevant than where you've gotten the training because the law firm trains you to do the work.

And then the bigger [00:06:00] the clients, the law firm has the more detailed oriented it, the more training you're going to have. So the way to explain that, just in a kind of a brief way is when if you're at a law firm and that law firm is representing apple well, apple has the ability to write checks of, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars a month to any law firm without blinking.

And I, and and because of that, the work that the law firm does is going to be very, they're going to put in a lot of hours and a lot of detail. I'm thinking about things at a much deeper level than a small law firm might with with a smaller client with a limited budget. And so that's the advantage you get.

And if an attorney can do very well in these types of law firms in the large law firms work hard and they get a set of brakes and there are many breaks many times to make that happen. I would say it's very common for people to succeed based on those. It can compare to just, the quality of the work and it can be very rewarding if you can make it to the top of those firms.

So there, there's definitely a potential to make very large income at those types of [00:07:00] firms and to do very well. But at the same time, because those law firms have so many people that want to work there and they have such big clients that are willing to pay large legal fees. And it's so hard to get ahead there.

These law firms are often very grueling places to work. They don't need you. You, they, they can find someone like you often very easily, so they don't offer a lot of job security. And they also don't offer a lot of long-term benefits to anyone except a very few few people that are able to get ahead.

And the people that kind of end up in the inner circle and and the rule of thumb and what affects most people is that working in these firms really can make many attorneys very unhappy. And it's because there's so little prospect for advancement. There's so many hours required.

The work is often very stressed. There's lots of deadlines. And and it can be very dehumanizing for a lot of attorneys to work in these firms. And I would say for junior associates, many times and mid-level, and even senior associates, the dehumanization [00:08:00] is more the rule than the exception because the competition is hard there.

And it's, so there's so much work in there. So now you're competing against very competitive people both socially in terms of how they can undermine you and so forth. And but also in other ways as well. Many people give a long lots of their life to these firms. And and then they spend years afterwards trying to rehabilitate their selves and often not having much to show for it.

I've seen, I've had instances. I'm not going to say if it's a man or a woman, but I remember not too long ago, I talked to a candidate and they said something like, I went into this big law firm to interview and they said, you, you seem like a vibrant, very healthy person. Like you should not.

You can, be a lot happier than spending the next several years of your life working here, you should work someone else or working at other type of employer. And that person was very offended. They I'm not going to say if they said it was sexist or whatever, cause I don't want to get in trouble, but they thought that was a pretty mean thing to say, but it's true.

These firms They have very high expectations and they can afford to have it. And the clients deserve it. The pain, a [00:09:00] lot of money. And but it can be very stressful for people. It can be very dehumanizing, meaning, you just working very long hours without a lot of sleep.

And and it can it can hurt people. I've known several people that I knew personally that were, dad in their their late thirties and all through their forties from working in very demanding jobs. And and many times you meet people that have been doing this for 15, 20 years and they look like, they look like sailors.

They're just, they're all broken up and stuff. And there's addiction issues and frustration and so forth. And many times people have want to do entirely different careers and aren't happy now, that's of course it's not everyone by any stretch of the imagination, because there are people that do very well with us and and actually this sort of thing makes them stronger.

It makes them better. It makes them vibrant. I think that it's a certain personality type. I was, one of the things that's interesting is there's different types of people. And I was talking to I don't know what my daughter over the weekend and and about the difference between introverts and extroverts.

So an extrovert is going to be very. Reading and thinking about things and staying home and [00:10:00] doing those sorts of things and not going out and socializing and going out and socializing and being in public spaces and doing stuff actually makes them uncomfortable. Whereas someone who's an extrovert is going to be very uncomfortable, staying home and reading and doing nothing.

They actually are only get power from being around other people. So it's like that with law firms. There are people that are a hundred percent suited to this. And when you talk about the negatives of the hours and the work and so forth, it's not always a negative thing. It can be a very positive thing for some people.

And the learning that you do, you're not going to ever many times get exposed to that much work and get developed your skills. And it, so it's very good, especially when you're younger. But one of the things that's important to understand, I think, and this is a lesson that I tell a lot of people is when you get out into the world, like after 10, 12 years of practice most attorneys that start out in large law firms are not going to be making as much now.

That's not all of them. But most of them aren't going to be making as much as even first-year associates are making and the largest law firms and even [00:11:00] the ones that started the largest law firms, because what you're essentially doing when you join a major law firm is your front. Your compensation to the front of your career.

So you're taking all the money you might make later on if you were to go to a smaller law firm and make partner and and in your you're, front-loading that kind of right away into the beginning of your career, because the odds are not always, but the odds are not in your favor that you're going to make as much money in the future.

So you're getting all that. You're doing all that right now. And then at some point you may have to leave the large law firm. But the thing that's important is that, when you start your career to a large major law firm you're likely to you're starting your career with a limited amount of gas in your tank.

And and you're likely to burn through this gas a lot faster than than if you started out at a smaller affirmed many times. And so the example I gave right at the beginning of this webinar was that there's a lot of attorneys that will start their careers and and at these big firms and we'll be gone, they'll, they will no longer be practicing law at 2, 3, 4 years.

Whereas in the ones that start at the smaller [00:12:00] firms spend a lot, don't and and again, a lot of these attorneys that I've known have experienced lots of health issues heart attacks, cancer psychological problems and certainly lots of addiction issues and so forth.

In re in return, they get the experience. They also get salaries and but the understanding that many times, there's not a lot of stability in those jobs. And in it, for many people, it's, these sorts of firm firms are not conducive to to a long-term career in the practice a lot.

And I'm not, that's not for everyone, of course. But a lot of people do leave these firms after a few years and they often feel very disillusioned and broken and a lot of them will never practice law again. One of the things that reminds me of is I remember when I was in college there were these people that that that I knew pretty well.

And one of them was a guy from a a small town in Oklahoma that had been like the valedictorian of his high school. And it was a really excited guy. And then another one was I don't know, from a small town in Ohio where he'd also been like a valedictorian and and they both got to [00:13:00] my college and and within, two or three semesters flunked out and got in.

But, they, because I got such bad grades and they were very unhappy. And and so they went into this environment that was just so demanding for them and where they couldn't have done, but they didn't do as well. And there's been other studies that a lot of times you know it Ivy league schools, a lot of people will go and they'll major at in these very complex sciences.

And and they may, they may be people that were in the lower half of the class in terms of their sat scores and so forth. And and then those people will actually drop out of the sciences and then major in liberal arts at a very high rate. Whereas if they'd gone to a college where they were, their grade or their sat scores and stuff were higher and compared to the average student, cause everything's greater, not a curve, they wouldn't have flunked out.

So one of the things is when you go to these firms, sometimes you may think you're very lucky working in them, but they can for some people they can actually do a lot of harm and partners are often very stressed in these firms as well because they're stressed to produce [00:14:00] lots and lots of revenue.

They're constantly told they have to raise their billing rates at levels that seem almost insane. They're told they can only bring in certain types of clients that depending that we'll spend an incredible amount of money, like at some firms, they may not take a litigation case unless there's million dollars in fees involved.

And and so it can be very difficult for partners as well at these firms. And and so the billing rates many times the larger the firm, the more conscious. There's always going to be partners who will hoard work and and not give it to other partners. So if a partner doesn't have any work, they'll be in trouble.

There's often management systems that can change or soft sorts of things. And I remember when I was an associate this partner that I worked for said he would give anything to be an associate again, cause it was so much easier than being a partner and the largest established firms, I typically run very tight economic models.

So they, because they've been around for a long time, they've been constantly fine tuning all of their economic models and getting as much sufficient efficiency and everything [00:15:00] out of their attorneys as they possibly can, and to get as much revenue from clients and partners and associates and other people they that's really how they operate and and what they need to do, what they do.

And that, that can be very stressful if you're working in one of those firms. The other thing is the profit model the the law firm model, these they've evolved over decades. What that means is it means that they have made it fewer people. Are going to ever be eligible for partner. And the control of the money is very tightly controlled.

There's a very few people at the top that are controlling the money and the access to opportunities. And they they figure out all sorts of games to prevent you from becoming partner and to prevent partners from making a lot of money. And and they become more impersonal with more systems and bureaucrats.

And and you, that can become very difficult places to work. And they're not necessarily entrepreneurial as they are almost very efficient government offices where there's not a lot of opportunities. They often have a lot of benefits, but there's also a lot more politics, gamesmanship bureaucracy and so forth and other types of firms.

And that, that's how it works. Now. One thing [00:16:00] I will say the point of this whole section is that if you do want to work in a large law firm, the firm's main office is typically the best place to work. And the reason for that is because most of the people that are gonna make decisions about who's going to become partner and so forth are often most often in the main office.

And the connections that you need are often, most often going to be in the main office. There, it can be impossible in some firms to make a partner if you don't ever work in the main office. And and you're not gonna really know, especially with the most established law firms who you're not going to know the people that are going to have the power to necessarily make you a partner.

So that's one of the things to understand about the main offices is that you'll typically have a lot more control over your career. The other thing about main office is the main offices are less likely to close. Obviously the branch offices branch office is open and close all the time.

One partner many times is the main source of business in a big branch office. And if they leave, they can pretty much take the whole office with them. So those are [00:17:00] some things to understand. So the branch offices of large established law firms are also good places to work and get early experience.

But at the same time they can be very challenging environments as well. One of the upsides is that because there, it's not the main office, many times you can have more of a work-life balance. You may be, are immune to kind of the politics happening in the main office and and the work-life balance.

Often happens because sometimes they may just be servicing a local client or some local clients where the work isn't as demanding or they're matched, will be partners that have been transplanted there from a local office as well. And it's often many times easier to get hired by a branch office in the main CA and then the main office the hiring standards, not as many people often want to work there.

Many times you can actually advance faster in a branch office to become partner because you may not be as part of the same scrutiny under the same scrutiny as a powerful main office partners. And they may want to occasionally make partners just to say they have in a branch office, which could be helpful.

[00:18:00] And so sometimes can work to your advantage, but more often than not the opposite is true. So there's been for example beginning in the 1990s, a lot of New York law firms in the early two thousands started opening offices and Silicon valley and that sort of thing. And and before that in Los Angeles it became very difficult to make partner in those branch offices, for example.

And and the other downside of a branch office has many times there's a lot limited range of work. If the work has to be sourced locally many times you may the work may be a lot more limited. And that means you're not going to get the same experience, training and opportunity for advancement.

So sometimes branch offices, but literally they could have, just a few attorneys in them. Sometimes they attorneys are even working from home. It's they can be both good and bad places, but sometimes they're very large branch offices. More often than not with national firms branch offices, we're able to build up but branch office associates often do not get the same work or chance for billable hours as the main office counterparts, which can hurt their ability to get ahead.

[00:19:00] In a branch office it could be the fact that they may only do one type of litigation. Lots of New York law firms, for example, in Silicon valley will hire this is just an example of a one firm hired opened a bunch of associates to work in an antitrust case that, dragged on for years.

It was the only case in the whole office. And so that. If everyone's only working on one type of case and that's going to hinder their their ability to get ahead. They're also often in danger of closing down or laying people off. So they can they'll often be there for just a few clients and and these clients can disappear.

Whereas, in the main office, they may have a lot more depth. And so it's there tends to be more layoffs and branch offices many times, and there are the main offices. The other big drawback is that partners in most branch offices, aren't really part of the power center of the firm. And so what that means is a lot of the decisions are coming out of the main office.

So the partners and the branch offices many times are just hired from local firms that may have been rated when that, when they wanted to set up a firm, when they wanted us to have an office there. And those partners may feel very [00:20:00] little control over their compensation another aspects of things of their lives.

And so there's actually more insecurity among partners, branch offices partners and branch offices also tend to not have come up through the ecosystem. So they'd never started as associates. They were hired laterally. And so those types of attorneys were unhappy. The previous firm, they're more likely to be unhappy at their current firm and leave.

And so that's another thing to think about. And a lot of times partners in the branch offices just never feel like they're part of the real firm. They almost feel like they're hired guns and this isn't always the case. Of course, especially. Major law firms with major branch offices, but it definitely can happen.

And it main office partners will often deny it. But a lot of these branch offices do have what I would consider a second class citizens. And and there's a lot of sometimes resentment and insecurity. And then another issue is that the branch office partners, and again, this is not always the case, but as a general rule, you're more likely to get unreliable lateral partners with a history of leading firms.

Then you may end the branch office. The branch office [00:21:00] typically has a lot more hiring part power and so forth. Then the then the than the, less hiring part power than the main office. And so they, the branch offices typically have a harder time attracting the same talent as the main office may.

And and then because they're hiring a lot of times, lateral partners, a lot of the lateral partners that are hired will go there representing that they have a certain amount of business. The business may not always materialize. And then when the business doesn't materialize then those partners will be insecure.

They won't have work. The associates won't have work and it can be a CATA environment for associates and other. And for career advancement, so that's also a negative thing. And then finally a lot of branch offices never make partner. This is, I don't know if this is the case anymore.

But Simpson Thatcher as an example, which is a great law firm and just, and has never had the need to make people partner and it's Los Angeles office. It's nothing wrong with that. But certainly the partners there from New York and connect to others in power.

And then of course not all branch offices of largest hellish firms have these problems. A lot from bending existence over 50 [00:22:00] years, some of the branch offices or of law firms are considered even better than the main office. It, it doesn't really matter Quinn Emanuel is an example and change his power center from LA to arguably New York.

And it doesn't, a lot of the law firms can be can get can become very powerful as branch offices and just not always the case. And they can always, sometimes they can grow very aggressively. It just depends on who they hire and that sort of thing. Then the next option of course, is mid-size firms.

There's a lot of different types of midsize firms but in general, midsize firms are going to be found in the most regional markets. They offer a lot of advantages from a happiness perspective and the style of life perspective the ability to advance in your career. I think that midsize firms are great.

I think that attorneys are often very happy there. They can often have very good careers inside of mid-sized firms. And I think it's a lot of the attorneys that don't get into major firms get jobs at mid-sized firms and end up being very happy and staying there.

I think people tend to stay much longer at midsize firms. I think that people have [00:23:00] much more options, many more options to advance in midsize firms. And I think it's the general rule. I think a lot of the careers are more they have longer careers and so I've noticed that many times attorneys that joined mid sized firms will join those firms out of law school.

They may not have been at the top of their law score, whatever. And if they're stable people and they commit to the law firm, they're often practicing at those law firms a decade later. And in contrast, I've noticed that if an attorney goes to a top law school and gets really good grades, for example, and goes to work at an at large international firm, the odds are very good.

They won't be practicing there. So I think that from a style of life standpoint, and also for us from a career stability standpoint and for the idea of sticking with. The law firm for a long period of time. I think that many times mid-sized firms are good places. And I think that what happens in larger firms too, is that larger firms will often because there's so many applicants and so forth, they'll often develop cutoffs.

So law schools do this too. So like the top 10 [00:24:00] law schools will have these kinds of cutoffs where they're all looking for the same people, which are, don't know, one 70 and your L side with 3.7 grade point average and look use those as cutoffs for the most part. Or I dunno if that's the correct number, but some law school admissions name is telling me that not too long ago that's whoever one's looking for, people above that.

Law firms are the same. They have the major law firms, the largest ones will have grade cutoffs per school. They'll have all sorts of screening mechanisms and things. Whereas a mid-sized law firm may not. That's one thing also a mid-sized law firm may not pay as much or have as much opportunity, but they they, their clients are, they want their client, they want stability.

They're less they're not working for large faceless, huge corporations or as big as corporations. And they typically will do more of an effort sometimes to keep people around and to protect the people that are there. Their clients are often less demanding. And then. They're just often very good places to work.

I can't say enough good things about them. I deal with these types of firms at these firms all the time and whether it's in Rochester or Las Vegas, Sacramento, and [00:25:00] orange county and all these sorts of markets. And and I can tell you from the, been doing this a long time, I've found that most of the time, these attorneys are much happier and seemed much more balanced and more secure in their jobs.

And a lot of times the attorneys in the largest park it's now, I don't know why that is. I could give you a lot of reasons that I suspect it is. I think it's probably because they don't pay as much and there's not as many people that can replace the people with the clients probably aren't as demanding the the partners themselves aren't as trying to make as much money.

I don't know. But I do know that when I talk to these attorneys, they seem more committed to the practice of law. They seem less talking about how they need to go in house. They seem less stress. Often much money is not the first thing they think about. So they think about that.

So there's just a lot of positive things that come about. It's not always the case. But as a general rule that's true. And of course there's large, there's mid-size firms in large cities as well. And they're in New York or in Los Angeles and Chicago. And it's the same thing.

[00:26:00] I think that there's also often a lot more employments to security there. And many times better work environments. And then at the largest law firms in those cities now, again, I'm not, I can't lump every large law firm into that and I can't lump every mid-sized law firm into that. I'm talking about generalities.

There are some mid-sized law firms in LA that are considered just some of the worst places in the world to work in. And there's also some large law firms in LA that are considered great places to work in. But it's just, it's it depends, but unproductive partners, many times mid-sized law firms are often kept on much longer after they would have been let go and larger firms.

And in addition mid sized law firms also tend to have lower billing rates. So it's easier for younger clients or younger attorneys to bring in business younger attorneys and midsize firms often also get better experience. So they are able to make, do things earlier and often they'll actively involve you in business development activities and take an interest in showing you how to generate business.

So I was talking to a midsize, a very well-known mid-size law firm in LA recently. And their pitch was [00:27:00] pretty good. It was like, we have this, we have all these different niches and corporate law and so forth. And we actually show our junior and mid-level attorneys, how to go out and bring in clients.

And they were serious about it. They had this whole system, they followed and they would show them how to go develop their books of business. And then I had a an attorney that works for me and went to Berkeley on full scholarship for law school. And he worked for me before he went to law school and he joined them right out of I think firms called Sheppard Mullin, but he joined them right out of law school and became a partner there, several years later and stayed there and he was very happy.

And so I think that, mid-sized firms can be great places. And and in these firms I think a lot of times people feel like they're family as opposed to being just treated as workers or commodities that are easily replaceable with a shelf limited shelf life and so forth. And the law firm actually wants to see them grow.

And and of course there's drawbacks. A lot of them pay less the law firm that I mentioned Chevron Mullen, I don't think does, but a lot of them do. And sometimes for the most part, they're not going to have access to the most sophisticated work. So the largest law firms will often have [00:28:00] access to the most sophisticated work.

They'll often have a very difficult time remaining competitive in their respective markets. And some are going to be overly dependent on a few clients for their work. So that's also part of it. And it's generally going to be very difficult to move from a mid-size firm. But not that difficult, depending your practice area to move from a mid-size to a large firm, but it depends on the economy and the practice area.

So right now, if you're in a mid sized law firm doing corporate you're not going to have too much of a difficulty. If you had a very prestigious litigation mid-sized law firm and you have great qualifications, you're not going to have too much problems, but it just always depends. But these firms will always provide stability for associates many times to move much more so than a lot of smaller firms.

And and just, as I have said, several times, I find the attorneys there much more much happier most of the time, but not all the time. And then they are in a lot of larger firms and some of these firms also have very well known niche practices. So in in big cities, there's [00:29:00] always a bunch of them that may do real estate or IP and so forth.

And the biggest drawback of those firms though, is that they're always at risk of merging so they could theoretically they could merge into a larger law firm if they get very good in their niche or if they they have the quality of attorneys that you would find in the larger law firm.

And the quality of clients they're always under assault and people are trying to merge them. They're trying to pick off their partners. And there's always discussions about merging so far. So you, it, depending on the firm, you may actually have a lot less employment stability there because there is a lot of pressure on the midsize firms, especially the good ones to merge, but it all depends on the practice here.

And it depends on the management. There's a lot of midsize firms that say they would never merge some of them sometimes that's true other times it's not. So it just depends. The other thing is a boutique law firms. They can often offer significant advantages. These firms are more likely to get exposure to clients and and the people that work there the attorneys there better experience in their career the attorneys will often [00:30:00] also get more interesting work than they might otherwise get in a larger firm.

And the attorneys at smaller law firms may also get closer to partners and others in charge and and have very good long-term relationships. So a lot of people become very interested in working at a boutique firm. And when you use the term boutique, really what you're talking about are from.

Are very well-respected for whatever they do and they're small. But there's also often a lot of disadvantages to working in boutique firms. And I'll talk about that because it can be very risky depending on the boutique firm. Depending on the firm. Sometimes they have very good names.

They've been around a long time. But their work may also be generated by just a few attorneys as opposed to a team of attorney. So if you go to a firm with eight people in it, and there's two names on the letterhead, maybe one or two of those names would be the ones that are generating all the business.

So that can lead to issues. The people that are generating the work in boutique firms will often be want to take all the money that's coming in. So there's not a lot of opportunity for for new partners unless you're bringing in your own work. So if you go to work in a major national law [00:31:00] firm, that's doing a lot of work for giant national clients.

What'll happen is just the work from those clients will create a partnership opportunities, even if you don't have business which is nice, but but a lot of these boutique firms you will need business. And and then one of the things that I've noticed, I see boutique firm start and go out of business all the time.

And usually the reason is. It's always a money issue. So partners, the people in the boutique firms that the partners will fight over the money that's there or not enough money will come in more times than not there's fighting over the money. And the work environment can often become abrasive.

In the firm, the firms can break up, people can lose their jobs, the firms can go away. All sorts of things can happen. And again, the ones that have been around a long time, there's some very good ones that doesn't necessarily happen and be making a partner in a a large boutique firm can often not always, but be more difficult because again, a large law firm can make you a partner, even if you don't have business because they're institutional clients but smaller law firms don't have this luxury.

So you're going to need to learn how to make an economic contribution to grow the [00:32:00] firm, which is usually going to be they're doing things like bringing in clients for the most part. And these boutique firms will often pay a lot less in larger law firms and this pay gap can be massive.

You may be talking about 50% of the salary of a large law firms sometimes. And so it's hard for these boutique firms unless they have very sophisticated work from some clients it's very hard for them to attract top talent. But there are some, there's cheek firms. I saw this one in, I think it was in Minnesota the other day that had all these.

People that went to Yale doing appellate work. I couldn't believe it. And it was in Minnesota of all places. So there's very good ones all over the country. There's good ones in almost every city out there. But but a lot of times the people that are working there may be in danger of losing their jobs, if the cases go away.

And I've seen a lot of them lay off other associates. I've seen a lot of times these boutique firms will have lower billing rates and they'll pay less because the clients can pressure them. And and sometimes because they're smaller the clients will also give them problems with collections and this will create compensation [00:33:00] issues for the people there.

And then finally it can be very difficult for attorneys to lateral up and move to better firms, unless it's a very good a boutique firm. And there are some, by the way, they have incredible names. There are there are in every practice area, whether it's IP or healthcare there's ones that can be very good.

And the problem, but teak firms which is also a strength is that sometimes the training can be very good. So you could go to work at a boutique firm where you might be working for someone directly that is just an incredible attorney with a very good reputation. Or you could go to boutique firm where.

You're working for someone or you're, that doesn't have a good reputation is teaching you bad habits and so forth. The training can be all over the map. The larger law firms and the training that happens there is often a much more trusted than a boutique firm, but that's not always the case.

And again, there are some very good boutique firms out there. The point is that everyone knows that if you spend several years in Skadden you're going to come out and, have a very good understanding of whatever branch of law you're in. It had been taught very good habits.

But you're you also that may not happen in a boutique firm. They're not, the name [00:34:00] may not be as well known. It may be in an island locally, but it may not be known in other parts of the, the country what happens all the time. I would not daily, but pretty much daily and most major cities is dissatisfied partners from a major law firms will break off and start their own boutiques.

They may bring an associate or two partners may break off with one client and so forth and try to start a boutique. And the problem with that is. There's really nothing wrong with that. You can certainly do very well if you join one of these takes. But when when a new firm is starting like this the people that are starting, it don't have experience necessarily running a law firm or a business.

And and so they suddenly need to do all the work that is, whether it's leasing real estate or bringing in clients or collections and all the stuff that the firm may have done for them before. And so that can be very difficult. So I've seen lots of boutique firms, people with people breaking off a major firms, they get started and then they go out of business.

But then again most this is the important thing to understand. Most major law firms [00:35:00] started off as boutique firms. So if you get in the right boutique firm at the right time, you can have a great ride and be part of a huge national law firm eventually. And when I joined I joined a firm that became a a major national law firm that was fairly small at the time, so it can happen to a lot of people.

The next thing is FA newer, fast growing firms. So a newer, fast growing firm would be just a brand new firm that started sometimes you'll hear about them. They're pretty much in most major markets. They will generally create a buzz and you'll hear about them and they'll have a new way of marketing themselves, and everyone will start thinking about joining them.

They will they, many of them will become. Large law firms, they typically will have some sort of thing that sounds great about them. Whether it's, you can come to work in shorts or everyone, there's no titles, everyone's a partner. Who knows, but they always have these different kinds of ways of appealing to clients.

They'll talk about different ways of billing or that they're just it's never changing. It's always in the same, but they'll grow somehow. They'll grow based on being very good in a certain practice and so forth. And and the thing is that the law firms [00:36:00] growth is well managed.

The attorneys are, can be advanced rapidly. They can have access to lots of work and they've been given responsibility that they wouldn't otherwise have been given. And and that's great. So that's. And I think a lot of times people will like those firms and I'm in the, and the growth of the firm is generally going to occur because the firm is doing something right that the market needs whether that means that they're generating money from it or, creating an advancement or doing something that's a little bit different.

And and then people like on the negative side it's very common for these firms to collapse because a lot of times when they're newer and fast growing running a firm as a business, so one of the reasons it's so hard to make partner and to get ahead and to get jobs at the largest law firms is because they have all these systems in place.

And smaller law firms, especially new ones need to learn how to set up those systems. And the law firms will not necessarily have the skills needed to grow and manage them. And therefore it's common for them in fizzle out. And a lot of these law firms will fail and not succeed.

And and if you join one of them you may have issues. Certainly you could you're good have problems in your career. But the other thing [00:37:00] that happens is as the law firm becomes more successful, people will leave sometimes large law firms to join them with the expectation of quick rewards and becoming a partner and sharing in the profits.

The people there as you become successful will suddenly want share the profits. And then a lot of times what happens is the place that joined that was all fun to begin with becomes toxic and ends up disbanding. And these firms can also become very overextended they'll lease very fancy office space and stuff.

They'll hire more people that they can afford. The work quality will suffer and and the clients won't pay and people will stop, the they'll have other problems, the financial problems will start. And then these firms will often merge into other firms. So this is a Sally the different the chart that I promised you at the beginning of the webinar you can see here that the pros of the main offices of the large firms your best opportunities are basically there.

The prestige, the work, the salaries, the training there's a lot of advantages. The brand names can make rainmaking easier. You can [00:38:00] have not only ability to lateral other firms, but if you ever want to go in house, it can be much easier. In house from a main office of a large established firm because the in-house company is also buying that name.

So they'll think why are attorneys from this big firm? And, maybe they couldn't the that. So there's definitely a lot of advantages to working in the largest law firms. The cons are typically that you're, because of their salaries, they can hire a lot of people and they don't need to provide you job security.

They don't have to advance you because they can hire people, even if, without advancing them. The partners, it's very difficult for partners in many times to to keep business and to generate business because of the the amount of work and so forth that there could be a lot of unhappiness for the people there.

The saying dehumanizing conditions isn't necessarily accurate, but when I say dehumanizing conditions, I mean that people that are working, 16, 18 hours a day for months on end seven days a week, consider that dehumanizing. You can look at that a lot of different ways.

It could be, they're getting really good experience, but, it's, it depends on how you think about it. They also can [00:39:00] often be quite political bureaucratic and impersonal, meaning by impersonal meaning the law firm doesn't necessarily need you and and the bureaucratic nature can make it many times an unpleasant place for some people that want that more human connection and want to feel connected to the organization.

But at the same time, the benefits, especially when you're young and starting your career can be very good. The branch offices of firms are often, but not always less political. It can be much easier to get hired at the branch office because the people hiring you are often also laterals and they could become power centers and thrive.

They can also often be you can also often get or become a partner much easier there if they need to make them for whatever for certain reasons, just for appearances sake. But the big problems with branch offices are, they can often close down very quick. There can often be very limited advancement opportunities.

The work is often you're not many times not going to be working for the same clients. The most sophisticated clients and work may go to the main office. The work can be chaotic due to partners that were [00:40:00] hired laterally that don't always work out and may want to leave again. And and then you may sometimes depending on the branch office, you may feel like a second citizen and a second rate citizen.

I did talk a lot about mid-size firms. I like mid-size firms. I think that from what I've seen there tends to be a lot of more stability there than that even boutique firms and smaller firms and fast-growing firms. But they are often in danger of merging which I think is which especially in keeps happening.

I think that they often provide a lot more job security while they are number driven. I think it's less and I think that they're often we'll work on a lower salary salaries, less important things. And so a lot of times people did not like them.

And then talked a lot about boutique firms and th the, boutique firms, a big thing, I would say there is, it really depends on the boutique and the practice area that it's in and the location and the history. So if you take all that into account it may be a good place.

There's some very good boutiques, for example, and maybe an employment. There's some very good plaintiff's boutiques. There's some very good boutiques for different types of for [00:41:00] all sorts of different types of law. Depending on the firm, the boutique may be your absolute best option to join.

And there can be some, you can also work sometimes with some very good attorneys there, and then newer, fast growing firms can be an incredible opportunity they're in every city. So if you do a search for a news articles and try to read about new firms or new, started by people breaking off from different firms and so forth you can often find those firms they can offer you very exciting work.

They can often be much easier to get hired at. They can offer more advancement opportunities many times because they don't have everything and stone and and they can often end up being very successful. The drawback of any law firm that's a boutique. I knew her fast-growing from many times is that people that are running them often do not have the managerial skills to do so they don't make the right business decisions. They will not always do them with committees and so forth. They can be vulnerable to mergers. But a lot of times it's a business decision and the ways of thinking about business and matters that can [00:42:00] actually end up hurting the firm and hurting your prospects there.

And it's not that the people there are doing anything wrong, it's just that they haven't had the opportunity to learn how to do things, attorneys make decisions and they make them they can have the types of decisions you make can have a massive impact on your career.

I've given you a little bit to think about, and I would argue that that even despite what I've said, there's a lot more that you could think about in terms of everything that I've said, because every firm and every city has a. A lot of a lot to teach and a lot can happen. One example is Meg Whitman.

She joined eBay when it was the top player in the online auction space, meaning it was already very successful. It was already growing very fast. Its user base was growing. It was a great business model, had a huge number of users. And and she got a great example because she was there while all this was happening.

But honestly I mean she, I'm sure she's a great executive, but the company was growing regardless of whether or not she was there more and more people were coming onboard to trade. Everyone was, it was the only game in town and so [00:43:00] forth. And it wasn't her idea to start the company and it was already growing like crazy when she got there, but she got all the credit.

And she got the reputation for being this incredible leader because she happened to be there. When this company was exploding and already doing well Marissa Meyer, she was a Google when it was already also growing. She was one of the first people there. So she had those, a lot of credit that she gets for that.

And and, but it was already getting a massive amount of market share. And she got the reputation for being an incredible executive because she was at the company while it was growing, which was based on an algorithm. And know the, a lot of reasons Google group, but obviously just the most popular search engine.

It wasn't her idea to start the company. And the company was hard to growing when she got there and she got the reputation for being an incredible. Because she was there and but the second chapter of both these careers turned out differently both of them ended up joining comedies or problems, and neither was able to turn these companies around because they didn't cause the problems and they didn't cause a success, their existing companies when they were there.

Anyway. They both Russ Meyer, Chris joined a Yahoo that continued to have problems. And I [00:44:00] think Meg Whitman joined HP unbelief. And but anyway, they w they everyone thought that they, when they joined these companies, that their presence would suddenly make these companies go turn around and their stock prices rose as if they had caused the success of their previous companies.

And and they had great reputations when they were growing companies that were growing long before they got there, but they lost their reputations when they are unable to fix a sink and ship. Not that they are necessarily caused the problems that happened and they shouldn't have, but but then of course, webinar after webinars started describing the weaknesses and shortfalls of these executives.

So the thing is that you can start your career at a fast, moving from a great firm or a one that's growing. And in your success, as an attorney will often be dependent on the type of firm you join. And it's very interesting, like what'll ha what happens to you will often be caused by the management of the firm, though.

That are made by other people, by people bringing in clients by the capital work you're given by the opportunities you're given. All these things will determine what happens to you. It's not necessarily [00:45:00] you, that's making things happen. It's your decision about where to join? So Marissa Meyer, great decision to join Google.

Same thing would make Whitman, probably not as good a decision to join these failing companies or companies that were going down. So you need to be in the right environment. I've done a lot of presentations and articles about environments before. So I have another one called union. Something about, you need to find your tribe and all sorts of things, but your decision about what type of employer to join is huge.

It's one of the most important decisions you will make in your career. It's it's hugely important. One of the things I counsel people against, but of course it's not always a bad decision, but I see people going house all the time. And what happens when people go in house is the management of companies changes.

Like clockwork. It's, if some companies go through three or four CEO's in a year or, or they keep changing. And when the CEO changes, they often get, they push out the legal department and a new CEO brings in their own legal department. And it's just, all these changes happen that you can't control in house.

And the resumes of [00:46:00] people that go in house are typically littered with company after company, after period of unemployment after a period of unemployment and move from state to state. And, and that's not always the case of course, and not everything ends up that way, but sometimes the company you joined because you don't have control over it, it can be very harmful.

It's the same thing with law firms. If you join a the wrong law firm, all sorts of bad things can happen to you. You can end up in a very bad position. You can, you can you can, lose your job. You can have a very bad experience practicing law.

You can be a very unhappy and not want to practice law anymore, or it could be the opposite. You could end up having a great experience and being very happy. And and sticking with a practice law and sticking with a firm you're out for the rest of your career. It's the people that around that end up shaping you and it's the organization you're part of that ends up shaping you.

And this is what I think is one of the things that I think is just hugely important because if you're joining a large law firm and you're unhappy, they're like, what does that, what is the taste that leaves in your mouth about practicing law? How much does it make you want to continue practicing law?

How much does that want to make you join a new [00:47:00] firm? Or if you joined a mid-sized firm and you have a very good experience and you stay there, how much does that make you want to stay practicing law? So I think that the decision you make is massively important. Now, one thing I did say in this webinar that I don't think it's always true is that a lot of times people join these huge firms and have very dehumanizing experiences.

And that simply is not the case for tons and tons of firms. I know people that have joined, every one of the top 10 largest and most prestigious firms in the country that have had incredible great experiences there. Cause those dependent on the practice group you're with it's depends on the people you're with is dependent on all these different factors.

And so those factors will make a massive impact on how you feel like who you're working with whether or not you feel a sense of commonality with them, whether or not you feel. But they're not the work's interesting to you, whether or not you feel raised up by the environment or pushed down by the environment.

I had this experience several years ago and it was it taught me a lot and I really thought a lot about it. And I've been thinking about it, like in a [00:48:00] bunch of different ways since but I went to this that I was invited to this dinner in Beverly Hills or something by this guy that had had spent he, he started these will estate seminar companies or something that I didn't know about, but someone else that I knew invited me to this.

And he wanted to sit down and talk to everyone about after he sold these real estate companies, real estate seminar companies, which I think he did for a lot of money, like hundreds of millions of dollars. He wanted to figure out the meaning of life and went and spent I dunno, several years, like traveling the world and going to meeting with the Dalai Lama and all these kinds of the Pope and all these, big kind of I don't know if you know the Pope, but all of these big religious people and gurus in India and stuff, because he wanted to figure out like what it all means and what is the big meaning?

And self-improvement if thing that I don't know, but he spent all this time studying this. And so what he eventually his message was, and it took me a while to figure it out. And actually then I had a lunch later on with someone that worked for him. Cause I was trying to figure out what it is, but basically the [00:49:00] idea was.

That the people become are happy and successful. And and in bridge, depending on the groups of people and the type of people they spend their time with, which I thought was very interesting. That was his whole religious message, but he come up with, and so it's like that with the employer you join.

So your career is going to be really defined and you will be happy or successful or not successful depending on the types of people and group you spend your time with. And it doesn't mean that a boutique firm is better than a major law firm or a major law firm is better than a mid-size or vice versa, but it means that finding that right mix of what works for you is extremely important.

I thought that was very interesting then, the other thing I thought about was it was the whole idea of no wires. People are so concerned about colleges. Why are people so concerned about law schools and why are people so concerned about all this stuff? Like, why does the law school, you went to matter?

Why does the, you know, why does the college you went to, why does the law firm you work for matters? And I think the reason it matters and and I never really understood it, I think for one [00:50:00] part, I think people, there's an ego thing that I think people think, oh, if I go to this school, it means I'm, there's something inherently better about me than if I go somewhere else.

But I don't think it's necessarily that I think what it's ultimately about is the people that you're around. So if you go to. If you go to Stanford law school, you're going to be around very smart people that are going to think about the world in a certain way. That's probably going to be a lot different than people that are going to think about the world.

If you go to a a small loss from a small law school. And I don't, I'm not gonna say anything negative about any law school, but a small law, local law school in some city. Because those people that are going to small local law school or working at night, maybe they're trying to get ahead and there, they have certain views about their career as a people that are going to maybe Stanford or thinking about their career and their future and what they're going to do in a lot different way.

Just as someone that goes to Yale law school they come out and they think what's the most important thing for them. And what's the most acceptable is to, do public interest work and to maybe teach or be a [00:51:00] judge or to go into politics or do all these sorts of things where someone that goes to Michigan or Virginia.

And I think the most important thing is to work at a big law firm in New York or Washington DC on average. So the people that you're around are really going to affect the type of person you become and the type of law firm you're in is going to affect the type of person you become and how happy you are practicing law.

When you interview at a law firm one thing that I think is always important to ask whether it's a large firm or a small firm or anything is to say. You know what happened to the, who's, what do people tend to do when they leave here? What's happened to the last couple of people that have left and understanding what people do.

Once they leave a firm is very important because because sometimes people will leave and have horrible experiences and other times people will leave and go on to better things and they'll be very happy or sometimes people will rarely leave. So understanding, like what is that environment do to the people that work there?

Obviously Stanford law school probably does something different to people. And [00:52:00] then then NYU, where everyone from NYU would love to go to work in a big New York law firm. People from Stanford are gonna grow, it's just, it's dependent on the environment that you're in same thing with law firms.

And so that's something that I would recommend thinking about and just really doing your best to find the type of law firm that matters. That makes the most sense to you. So I will take a quick break just for a couple of maybe one or two minutes. And then when I come back, I'll ask answer questions about this or anything you would like to know about your career.

And and typically when we do these questions, we stay for the whole as long as people have questions. We'll do that and I will be back and just a couple minutes.

Okay, so let's get started now with questions. I'm just going to stop the share real quick. Why open a word document? Can you give me a second here? I'm going to see. And this is my favorite part of the week is answering these questions. So I love the questions, any questions you guys have? So I'm going to start with the last, most recent question. most recent question is this probably a pretty [00:53:00] popular question and foreign lawyers work in the us without an LLM and are taking the bar exam. And the answer to that is not as an attorney.

So you cannot work as an attorney in the U S as within, without an album or the bar exam. You can probably work as a clerk or something inside of a law firm or if you have whatever work papers you need. But but other than that there's not really much you can do. You do need to have the bar exam and then there's even certain states where where you probably cannot work and in, in different firms.

That's you do need, if you want to work as an attorney in the U S you'd definitely need the bar exam. You can't, but you can work as a clerk. And there are a lot of firms that have clerks just as a summer associate doesn't need to be an attorney to work as a summer associate at a law firm.

She can still give you assignments and so forth, but you may not have the ability to deal with it. Okay, can you please explain what the everyday work experiences for staff, attorney of counsel service attorneys versus associate attorney positions apart from staff attorneys being a non-partner track?

Are they always dead end [00:54:00] jobs? So law firms will make staff attorneys for a lot of reasons. And staff attorneys are not always dead end jobs. Staff attorneys at most firms can actually become depending on how well they do, they can become full-scale associates. So there's nothing necessarily wrong with being a staff attorney.

The only difference between a staff attorney and a and a real attorney is a lot of times and not a real attorney, but a an associate for example, is law firms will make staff attorneys in practice areas where and different things where they need people to do work, where they don't necessarily have the potential to advance them.

So some of those things might be like trademark sometimes would be one sometimes trademark just, filing applications would be one. You would have you might have practice areas like I don't know real estate, you might have residential leases. I th there, there could be also.

Practice here, sometimes document review you might have, or nocturia, you might have E discovery. There's [00:55:00] there any practice here really could have a staff attorney, but the idea of a staff attorney and sometimes it's just they may want to hire like a big law firm may want to hire a may want to hire a 15th year litigator.

He doesn't want to call them associates, but does not want them to be an associate. So there's all sorts of reasons they do that. I saw a guy that from a, like a top five law, lots of people from, top 10 law schools. From top law schools will be hired as staff attorneys by law firms.

If they do things like if they'd have done things like sorry, I'm just wearing this time going house, the government and so forth. And the reason that they make them staff attorneys is because the presumption is that the person is not going to stay around. So they just call them a.

First one will not stick around, which will not stick around. And so there, so they're going to put them on the non partnership tracks, sorry, this keyboard keyboards so loud. Oh shit. So that's how that's done. So they will do things that way. So there's nothing wrong with being a staff attorney many [00:56:00] times a staff attorney, you don't even need to put the TA on your resume sometimes.

You can put staff attorney on there, you just made, just put the dates you're employed there and they may assume that you were an associate or versus a staff attorney, but the reason they make you a staff attorney is basically because there's either there's not for whatever reason there's not going to be the, there's not a argument to be made for making you a partner.

I would say that's the main reason a law firm would make that. So in trademark, like a trademark application may be $1,500. The law firm doesn't want to pay the same as associates because there's not as much money for them. And so they may make you a staff attorney for document reviews and e-discovery they're not generating as many fees or as much money from a staff attorney.

So it's the same thing for someone who's, 10 years out and doesn't want to be an associate or maybe just doesn't have the qualifications of their associates. So you may be great. You may have something great in your background, but your qualifications, I don't know what it would be. But it could be that you've been in house or in the.

Could make you not qualify to be an associate. [00:57:00] They may do that, or they, they just, as a practice, they don't consider people that are 15 years out of law school. They wouldn't hire them ever to be an associate. So they make you an, a litigator or they make you they'll call you a staff attorney and maybe being counsel is a very competitive process at that firms they to want to call you counsel either.

So that's one of the reasons that they would they would call you that I wouldn't consider a dead-end job. I just think that by dead-end it's a position without a lot of opportunity for advancement. Sometimes they'll even just, they may have and some firms will have like one, one bankruptcy attorney on staff and that bankruptcy attorney will, or one they'll have a family law attorney or something.

And and they don't, that's not a practice area where they typically get important work or they get a lot of work, so they have staff attorneys. So it just, it depends on the practice area and the law firm. But I don't, I wouldn't call being a staff attorney, a dead-end job.

I don't even think it's that negative of a job and the negative connotation. It just basically means that the law firm doesn't is being honest, that they're not going to be. To make you partner. And and they're [00:58:00] there, if, if a huge law firm has a need for an e-discovery attorney and someone that does nothing but that they don't want to give their, they may not want to give their regular associates all you discover.

They may want to hire someone that does nothing but that. And someone that does nothing, but that is never going to go out and generate a huge amounts of clients and billing and so forth. So that's how they think about that. So yeah, there's nothing wrong by the way of being a staff attorney, there can be very good jobs.

The other thing too, is that, I've seen situations where someone is I was in an associate in a small law firm and a great practice here, like to March one example, and they're making, $60,000 a year. And then they get a staff attorney job with a big firm and suddenly they're making 150 and and and which is great.

That's as much as partners in that firm, where they were picking 60 mix. So there's nothing wrong being a staff attorney. And the only problem being a staff attorney most of the time is that the the amount that they pay is going to be a lot less than what the firm has pain.

It's it's associates, not always it's it's typically going to be in practice groups where there's not a lot of opportunity or aspects of practice [00:59:00] where there's not a lot of opportunity. So that's pretty much it. So I would not worry about any type of type of. And thanks for these questions, by the way, I'm actually entering, answering the ones with the end for the most recent ones first, but these are great questions and I love these questions.

These are coming up, staff attorney warm is great because I think that particular question I know a lot of people probably have fun and and I don't, I, by the way, just one other thing about the staff attorney jobs is I place people all the time, not all the time, but very often that had been a staff attorneys before.

So they may have been they may be coming from a staff attorney job and get a job in a big firm. So you can certainly move to as over into associate and all sorts of things as a staff attorney. It's not necessarily, it's not the end of the world. Okay. Can you elaborate on partners who have a history of lateral and what are you found?

Some of the reasons for switching firms every few years, as a young associate considered working for a partner who was a history of laterally, is there anything to be aware of? Okay, so that's a great question. Partners, lateral [01:00:00] for a lot of reasons. But but there's some problems. So let's talk about there's.

So firms with a lot of lateral partners are basically are basically firms. And when I say a lot, made up primarily of lateral partners are basically firms with a lot of a lot of was a missionary. Soldier fortune, types. So people willing to work at the firms that that pay the most and working from my office, they tend to be siloed, meaning they're not, there's not a lot of there's not a lot of cooperation between the the partners in the firm.

And and that, that creates a lot of issues. So meaning people hold on their business people will not share work. Partners will not share work with other partners, associates people are competitive for clients that can be very unpleasant places to work. And a lot of times they did those types of firms.

The more lateral partners a firm has, the more likely it often is to go out of business because there's no shared experience holding people together. So some firms in New York, like big firms you're crevasse and [01:01:00] you're your, all of your top law firm names have very few lateral partners.

They they just don't do it because they want people to go up through the ranks and have shared experiences and loyalty and all that. And then they want to create a unique culture for the firm. And you can actually feel the culture. Like I've been in an affirms that, if I meet an attorney from a certain.

I can have a sense of literally where they work without even them telling me now I'm, that's not for every farm. Of course it's not even for more than 10 or 20 firms, certain firms do have certain cultures in different cities and I can pick up on it based on the type of peoples and the way that people kind of act and behave and so forth.

So the idea is that if if a law firm is made up of a lot of lateral partners, that can be a very dangerous place to work. So an example is I worked at a firm that was made up of and this is in last firm I worked at that was made up of a bunch of lateral partners from all these different firms.

None of them shared work with each other. They were all a war with each other. They they the partners wouldn't share work with associates from the [01:02:00] other partners, from other firms and everyone was siloed. And you could be in an office of 50 people and working for two partners that were came over together.

And those were the only people you could possibly get work from. So these are some of the dangers now your, to answer your question as a young associate, considering with working with a partner who has a history of lateraling partners will typically lateral for a lot of. Part, but the main reason partners, lateral partners, generally lateral now, not always generally lateral because of compensation reasons.

I'm not going to talk about, I will. Yeah, because of compensation reasons or reasons or because they are not they're not, they're getting pushed out, so partners will get pushed out when partners get so, so compensation reasons typically what happens is a partner joins a firm, gets a certain amount of compensation the first few years.

And then and then

mildly established and then does not get the money. They think they should, the following year's money on yours and then leaves. So that's one thing that happens. So the partner [01:03:00] will so the partner may join a firm and then and then they'll say, I want to make. $10 a year. I'm just using that figure.

Melissa, she's an army fair let's use. I want to make $500,000. The first two years in the firm will give them some kind of format let's say, okay. And then after they've been there a couple of years, the partner may, I'm not bringing enough business. And as much as they said, they were going to, and the firm will say, we can own the pay $300,000 the next year or 400,000.

And they expect you to get everything up. And the personal say that really upsets me because you're not behind me. And then they'll leave and go to a new firm. And then the process will repeat itself or they'll go to a firm and they'll bring in 700,000 in the firm will say, we can only pay you 500 still the next year, even though we thought you were going to bring in this much money, even though you brought in 700,000 instead of 500,000 or whatever amount of business, we can only pay this.

So a lot of times we'll just, they'll be constant fights, but management and certain people will just fight. They just the lobbyists would be upset. I'm sure that, people like that, I certainly know people like that. Certain people [01:04:00] will always be upset with their compensation. And that's just kinda how it works.

And other people will be so we'll be happy with their compensation. So that's just, how things work and certain people will leave because of that. The other reason people leave though, a lot of times is if a partner has a history of leaving firms and leaves them all the time.

A lot of times, the reason for. Is there company there, the business that they represent that they're going to bring over to the next firm, never materializes. So they they will go over to a firm and they'll say I have a million dollar of the business and they get there and it turns out they only have 300,000 or they go to, and then they do that.

And then the firm after a year or so, I was embarrassed and then pushes them out and are two years or three years. So that's one of the things that happens. And then other people will just leave because they just, that's just what they do. For some people some people are will like to go clothes, shopping every weekend.

Other people like to, I don't know, move apartments every year. Some people are just like to move and they are like new friends in dump one group of friends and make a new, it just depends on the person. So some people just [01:05:00] move naturally. But the point is that the more established someone is in affirm, the more likely they are to be getting referrals from other partners in the firm, the more stable your job is going to be the more pulled they're going to have to make you partner.

So those are all good things. If you want to be partner in a law firm, you typically need someone to sponsor you and the person who sponsor you is obviously going to be the partner you're doing the work for. And if that partner is unstable and the law firm doesn't think they're stable, then then that's a problem for you.

So working for partners that switches firms every two years there's usually something wrong. It's. Now there are people that switched firms because they're moving from better compensation and moving to better places for their clients or soft sorts of reasons that people may search for switch firms.

But I think it's important to understand the reason that the partner you're working for switching firms. Now, you don't ask that until you've been hired by the person, but you just asked, how you ask, how long are we going to stay here? Why did you leave? Why'd you leave the last firm and get an understanding of that because you should, there's something wrong.

And there could be partners, there are [01:06:00] partners, by the way I've known partners that have been at 10 person law firms and have $500,000 in business. And then they say, what is it going to take for me to get to a 50 person law firm? And I might say, I don't know, a million dollars in business.

And so then they build up a million dollars and then they get to a 50 person law firm and they say, what is it gonna take for me to get to a 150 person law firm? And you said 2 million and then they do that. And then they move to a bigger, so sometimes people will move firms because they're moving up.

And that's a good thing too. So you just need to understanding you need to have an understanding of the reason that's happening. So here's another question. The person used the name, by the way. If you use your name, I'm not gonna, I'll try not to type your name to the questions.

I don't want people to see your name, cause I know this is all seminar, just okay. I had a regional firm say that the particular air I applied to was already partner associate heavy and just wanted to fill in. So staff attorney for that reason, is it a good idea to ask them, to consider you for a different department for an associate position hopes to transition to your desire practice eventually?

So I would say maybe not. So the reason I don't, [01:07:00] like what they're saying is they're basically telling you we do not have any opportunities which is fine. If they're being honest about it, that's fine. Or we don't have any opportunities for people like you. So that's like somebody telling you again, I don't know how to put this, but if if someone says, they want to be friends, they don't want to date you anymore.

That probably doesn't, that means that they don't want to date you. They just, and being friends is not the same thing as dating. You're obviously not gonna it's just a nice way to say we don't have any opportunities. So the point is that if you're trying to join a firm and the firm is telling you they don't have any opportunities, I don't think that's a good situation to be in.

I think that you deserve to go to a firm where where you can be where you can actually have opportunities to advance. And if it's partner associated have a certainly. But they're basically telling you that we don't have enough faith in your job to make you a real associate or no faith in you.

And there's plenty of places you can go where you can have, where you can find a firm and people there that are going to have faith in you. And I would, if it was [01:08:00] me, just me talking, I would want to go to work for people. I would want to go to work for people where I was wood that wanted me and wanted me to think I wanted to think highly of me.

But it's up to you. You have to make that decision. You may not want to practice law forever, and you may know that right now, or you may want a better hours, which you could get as a staff attorney. You may all sorts of things, but they're basically hiring you as a second class citizen and telling you that's okay.

Now I did want to bring up a couple of things and I'm going to bring this up and it's not to hurt your feelings or anyone's feelings here. But I do want to bring up a couple of things very quickly. So when you're, if you go to a law firm, sometimes people will get jobs. Like sometimes people will get jobs or offers from firms that are way out of their league.

Meaning they will get a job at a firm that hires people for the most part way better than them, meaning in terms of their grades and intelligence and so forth. So if you go to a firm where everyone is more intelligent, more, better qualifications and so forth in you. That's fine.

And [01:09:00] you may rise to that level or you may not, but you're always going to be at a disadvantage if you do that. And you're always going to be disadvantaged if you start out as a staff attorney for the most part, maybe not, but but if you go to a firm that's basically telling you're not qualified to work here.

I don't think that's a good idea. And I don't like that because I see people like I see people all the time, like in my job, like I see people that like a guy, I know one guy that went to I'm like, what are your law school? And he started out his career doing what did he start doing?

I dunno, working in some of, doing collections, just filing these little lawsuits, doing collections. And, if he continued doing that he, would've probably been successful, but never really had that great of a career. And he wasn't anything special. He wasn't, even in the top half of his class when he graduated and Whittier is no longer in existence, it's a, it's a local law school in California.

And I think it's ABA pre or was, it's not the end of this, nothing wrong. I'm going to Whittier. But that he wasn't a top student at a local law [01:10:00] school and got a job in a crappy practice area at a crappy firm. And so instead of that, he went in and he ended up starting the company, I think doing credit card processing that he ended up selling to Intuit.

I don't know, $180 million or something and all this stuff. Now that guy instead of practicing law, he went into something where there was a lot more opportunity for him. He, and imagine if that guy had gotten a job at a very prestigious law firm and tried to compete with those people there, he would've gotten blown out of the water and he certainly never would have sold a company for $180 million and all this stuff.

So I don't know that. I think it's a good idea to put yourself in a competition with people that are better than you and smarter than you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I think if someone is saying that they want to start you off as a second class citizen I, I don't and again, being a staff attorney, he's not a second class citizen, but they want to put you in a role where they're saying there's no opportunity.

I don't think that's a good idea. I think you deserve, like this guy did to put yourself in a firm where there's opportunities. I meet personal injury attorneys all the time. I don't know why, [01:11:00] but meeting so many of them, not because I have any personal injuries, but I meet a lot of them. And and these people, some of them are incredibly successful.

And you would not think based on their smarts or anything that they would be, but they are. And same thing with family law attorneys. Which Pamela is actually, it can be a very complex practice here. I'm not a Saint, anything negative about it. And there's a lot of very good people, but you can be very successful in a lot of practice areas and firms without having to start out as a second class citizen, I just, I don't like anything that's so limiting your potential.

So that would be. That would be my word of advice to you to just be very careful with anybody that's trying to limit your potential because you can many times do great things doing something else. Okay. Let's see. There were some counseling associates. So counsel is typically is and there's an article that I brought the difference counsel and associates and partners, what law firm titles mean, but a counsel is typically someone that is typically your different types of attorneys are going to be your associate.

Then your counsel, these are[01:12:00] the different levels and your partner. So counsel is most often salaried, and then this is, salary plus, I would just say draw, draw plus distributions, meaning they get a percentage of the profits. And then there's council salary.

So someone who's council will typically be council. It's not a partner job. It's typically they'll make people counsel when they'll be counseled because they're older not as committed as a partner. That was great work. And two experienced. The partner or to experience to be an associate, but not dedicated enough or qualified enough

to be your partner. So that's really the difference of what a counselor versus a, an associate is. So an associate and an associate is just someone could be, first year too, whatever to, and then, so what a lot of firms will do is if someone's that they don't make them partner after 10, 12 years, they're not good enough to be pardoned.

We'll make them counsel if someone's a partner and they're not carrying their weight, they may make them counsel. So counsel, there's nothing [01:13:00] wrong being counsel. Most firms will reserve council positions for people that are very good technical attorneys or do not want to work full time. And and they'll make them that instead of a partner.

And and then partners are typically experienced, expected to have business and other things where counsel may not be the type of people that do that. So counsel typically are very smart people that you could work that are loyal, that or they may be very senior people that just don't have the drive to, go out and get business anymore.

So that's that I hope that helps. Okay. Okay. Are there factors? Let's see. That's a good question. I can, one, is it possible to do, to factor as one could end up at a certain law firm size and not be able to choose things like great experience, race, disability, et cetera. Yes. So of course so most people most people will go to the best law firm then get into.

So that's true. Your grades can prevent you from getting a job in a major city sometimes, or, a major firm in a major city. Your experience could hurt you, your lots of a variety of factors could hurt you. And your ability to, fit in or interview or whatever it could hurt you.

So [01:14:00] yes, a lot of times people can not choose. The interesting thing about humans is that, you can you, you regard whatever type of firm you want to work in you probably can, you can get there if you put your mind to it. If you work hard enough at a smaller firm, you can always move up to a larger firm.

And if you work really hard to larger firm, you can always get into a more prestigious firm if you're bringing the biggest, bigger clients and so forth. So the rules are all all laid out. They're there. They're on our side. You'd have to read a lot of articles to understand it all, but yes, most people do not get to choose are, you can, you get more choices depending on your grades and the quality of law school you went to and the quality of from your coming from the quality of choices to increases, depending on the.

Of the work that you do and so forth. So it's not just say that you would never be able to choose but but that's fine. But yes. But you theoretically, everything is under your control depending on your performance. One of the things, again, I said earlier is that your practice area, many times people will, you need to be very careful about the types of firms and practice areas you choose.

So it doesn't [01:15:00] matter how the quality of your choices will determine how well you do in the long run. So I hope that makes a lot more sense because let me see you don't go here. Okay. Okay. I will here's some other fun questions about transferring law schools, so I'll answer that.

Okay. Let's see here. Should I transfer to a more well-known firm from our resume stay? My current non-valve midsize firm. My current firm feels closer to market wages, but I'm enticed by the idea of working for more sophisticated clients, which might be a better bunch of, might be better from my resume, or I'm concerned about the negative aspects of working in a large firm.

My, my advice would be that that you should do whatever you feel the most, most comfortable for. There's nothing wrong with. Working at a midsize firm, if you feel better about it and you like the people there and you feel comfortable in the work. Not nothing could be worse than going to a firm where where your opportunities are going to be potentially limited.

I would definitely rec w w recommend going to the best from you possibly can go to that where you're [01:16:00] comfortable. I would read the article it's called how to find your tribe or something that, that I wrote, and I think how to find and read that.

But I think the point I made in in, in, earlier is that, you have to consider when you're interviewing, when you're thinking about where you're going to work, who where are you most likely to have the most longterm opportunities?

Where are you most likely to be happy? Where are you most likely to get advanced and so forth? And all that you have to think, I, what I will say is most people that I know, and again, this is not all. And and it's certainly not a but most people that I know do much better in the long run they have more career stability at mid-size firms that are.

Then they would have at large law firms that don't necessarily need them as much, but that's not everyone. A large law firms are amazing places. And working at working with more sophisticated clients could give you a better experience or could not. There law firms, a larger law firm, you may not get as good of experience, but and you may be against, you may be in a more competitive environment.

But it's really up to [01:17:00] you though. The objective though I think that the biggest the biggest concern that I always have for attorneys, when I talk to people about what type of firm you should join, what, and all that sort of thing is making sure, how long do you, how long do you foresee the employer giving you work?

So in this question employer doing your work, given your work. So this question I think is important. So if you interview with that firm, if you're at a firm right now, and you think that you're going to have work for a long period of time and you feel pretty, pretty confident that you're, you have a safe job.

And then that's probably a good thing. If you think going to a bigger firm is going to make you a better person. And you're also concerned or a better attorney, and you're also concerned about the work then, and you're, and you think you could get work down long run. You think you're going to become a better person or a better attorney than that may make more sense.

You need to be where you see the most opportunity. And the other thing too about large law firms, a lot of times, and it's not always the case, but we're this, that [01:18:00] when anytime the economy goes into your tail spin, if you're in like a corporate market, if you're doing corporate work or litigation but corporate is a big one or any sort of transactional work.

A lot of times the work can end up going away. And so that means that they lay people off and so forth. Whereas firms that aren't large we're firms that are smaller, maybe have more balance work. The other thing that happens during recessions is the work will often go from the large firms.

A lot of work would go from large firms to midsize and smaller firms where the work where the the law firm has more stability, meaning where the billing rates are lower, so that, that can help you as well. It's just depends, but I certainly wouldn't leave a firm unless you feel like there's a much better advantage to working in a larger firm.

Let's see here. Okay. Let me see. Oh, this is a good question. So I'm trying to answer some of the questions that people asked earlier now. So I'm currently an associate of a big law firm, but I'm seeing a lot of people leaving for different things. Other firms are offering more money. If they're signing bonuses.

My current friend was not giving. I'm worried that I will have to pick up the slack and [01:19:00] work. Is this something I should be worried about? What should I do? So just because people, some people are always, there's even every prestigious law firm that I've ever encountered all the best law firms the associates will always say everyone's leaving.

So it's been that way for decades. So it doesn't matter the firm's name. Any positive, any firm you can think of. I always talked to people there and they say, oh, everyone's leaving. I should leave too. And or the firm's not keeping pace with salaries and that sort of thing. And so I don't think that anyone should leave a firm because they're not matching salaries.

I don't think, it is certainly a consideration, but with the law firm you, shouldn't also look that you're going to have ups and downs. It's almost like a marriage. And not that the law firms going to stick with you through all four points, but you definitely get a lot of when they sit down and think about who to keep and who to let go and who to make partner, you get a lot of credit if you've been able to stick around when other people are leaving and you stay there.

So that's one thing these signing bonuses and everything, I don't know the [01:20:00] S they're giving the signing bonuses because they have to so I don't know. That, getting a signing bonus is really something that you should worry too much about. I think that the signing bonus is a good thing.

Of course. There's nothing wrong with a signing bonus. But the same firms that are giving, signing bonuses we'll also let peop I don't know, it's just something to think about. If you have to pick up the slack and work that's not necessarily a bad thing.

When you're young, meaning when you're in your first five to six years of practice, it's, there's nothing wrong with working really hard and getting a lot of experience because that's just going to develop more habits and more ways of thinking about things and that will help in the long run. I think especially if you're working for partners that have a lot of business.

So if you're able to work for partners with a lot of business, when things slow down and become very loyal to them that can help you. There's one, one of the things that a lot of people don't talk about, but I did want to bring up real briefly is there's a lot of associates that are a lot of partners in major law firms that that were, that stuck around.

They have a reputation for sticking around. When things get [01:21:00] when, when other people are leaving, they always stick around and then people start to trust them more. And then when they trust them more, they give you access to more clients. They give you access to more work.

They don't lay you off when things slow down. And then the other thing that happens of course, is those partners that you build up that loyalty with will do their best to make you a partner. They will, they'll stand behind you when things are rough, they will. And then when they make you partner and when they when they retire, they will give you their clients.

And there's lots of people that would never be partners and lots of major law firms that got their books of business that way when people retired and so forth. So those are all things to think about. I think there's a lot to be said for loyalty, obviously I'm I make my living placing people and but, and people have a lot of different reasons for leaving firms and going to new ones.

But I would say that I think that all of these things are pretty important and and that sticking with places if you can is always, can be a real advantage. Let me just sit here. It's more questions. Okay. [01:22:00] Here's the good. This next question is let's see here. What do you do if you're already a nice parent law firm that worked best with your practice here, but didn't like the people you're working with it doesn't matter. Yes. It doesn't matter if you don't like the people you're working with then they probably know it and and they don't probably like you as well, if you don't like them.

So if you don't like the people you're working with, that's not a good thing. Now that could be you that's creating that problem or it could be them, I don't know. And I don't even know how much that matters, but if you don't like the people that you're working with that can be a problem.

So I would definitely recommend if you're in a law firm and you want a future there, but you try to get along with the people that you're working with or try to figure out ways to like them because you should definitely try to have something in common or at least feel some sort of affinity towards the people that you're working with.

And I think that would be very helpful. So let's see here. Let's say there's a lot of your questions here. So trying to figure out what these are, let's see here. Okay. Okay. Here's a good one. Question. [01:23:00] It says many. And this is a recent question I have of them as to so many firms asked for retired salary, how to respond, ask for billable hours target first.

Okay. So the salary information, when they're asking for the salary information, their desired salary that, that is that, that question is a landmine. And that's a very scary question. So I think the reason that's scary is because law firms will, if you, if a law firm pays people in your class range or your class year, a hundred thousand dollars a year, and you say, you want to make 1 25, they're going to be like I'm not going to even talk to this person because they're going to want more money than we pay.

They're paying, they're asking for more money than other current employees. If we pay them what they're asking for, we'll have to pay everyone else the same amount and that will undermine our whole system. And that's not good for us. You definitely do not. We need to be very careful about that.

The best way to respond, really. If you say, but desired salary, just say I would like to be paid the same as other members of my class that you're, whatever you're paying. I'm more concerned about the work and my future then. Then my salary [01:24:00] I currently, if they ask how much you make, say, I currently make this amount of money.

Now, some people will want to leave firms and get a salary increase for leaving the firm and going through. Which you can certainly do. But the firms any firm that asks about your salary is typically asking that because they want to either eliminate you or they want to make sure, they want to basically not interview you.

If your salary is more than they're asking, or if you give a number of that's even lower than their pain, then they may actually pay you the lower number than other associates. So you need to be very careful. So I think that in terms of everyone that's ever that the best answer to this question is to say to say something along the lines of I would like to be paid the same as other members of your class at your firm.

I don't want to be paid any more, any less than other people are making something along those lines, whatever is fair. I'm interviewing here because of the work or, because you do this type of work and I think it would be a good place to work. I'm sure the salaries are [01:25:00] fair, something along those lines.

And if you want to work at a top law firm that pays the top salaries then you can certainly talk about that. But the best law firms are not going to ask you that the only the law firms that are a little nervous about what they pay are going to ask that now there are firms that start their first year associates at top of market salaries.

There always have been, and then increase them very slowly and not at the rate of major firms. It's but I think the best way is to, it's basically to come across as a team player and to say but what you would like to make and not where you would like to make, but that you want to be paid the same as everyone else.

And you want to be paid similar to your peers and so forth at the firm. And and then if they press you say I currently make this amount of money. I feel like I don't make enough or I'd like to make more it would be the other way to respond. And then but never cause if you quote a rate, then they're gonna many times get angry.

And and think this is much more than we pay. So I've seen a lot of people not get jobs because of that. So I think this is a very good question. So what happens? I was working with one woman that was[01:26:00] a partner in a law firm and she had no business and it was making, I don't know, something ridiculous, like $2.8 million a year without any business.

And she was interviewing with another firm that was just as prestigious, where she was working and and when they found out how much she was making, they would have hired her, but for her salary. And she really needed a new job. So I think that you just need to be very careful with how you answer these questions because had she not done that.

She would have gotten that job and so forth. So just be very careful when you ask a bat. Because it sounds because the law firms will not necessarily like it. Okay. So here's another one. Why is choosing a boutique firm, a risky career move for an attorney? What's not always risky. But but the idea is that the larger the firm, the more diversified it is so larger firms are more diversified.

What that means is they typically have lots of clients lots of practice areas, lots of [01:27:00] offices, all sorts of things. Offices must have attorneys with business,

smaller law firms do not have that. So smaller law firms will have fewer clients, not always fewer clients, fewer practice areas,

Fewer offices and fewer attorneys. And so what all that means is if a firm has lots of clients, which a good. The more clients a firm has, the less likely it is to go out of business or have economic problems if it loses a client. The more practice here is a law firm has what happens is most practice areas are cyclical.

So if you joined a bankruptcy boutique, when there's no bankruptcy work well, that's probably not a good move, but if you join a large law firm in their bankruptcy department and there's no bankruptcy work well, they can get work from their other departments to support your department while they're waiting from our work to come in.

What happens a lot of times is there's been instances in time where IP litigation was the most the most active practice area when IP litigation was active. It was generating much more money than corporate and all these other practice areas. And then the IP attorneys in the corporate attorneys, when it was slow, [01:28:00] we're able to get paid and support themselves with the money that was coming in from the IP litigation.

So that's one of the things that happens. The other thing is with offices. During economic contractions things happen typically what happens during a recession is the New York market collapses. Then right away the market on the west coast, fairly quickly also collapses. I don't know why it's that way.

And then other markets start falling like Chicago in my hand. Other things. And then sometimes during the last recession, because there was a, I don't know, the oil prices were up in Texas. Didn't nothing happened with Texas. Like it didn't suffer in the recession right away, so different markets can balance each other out.

And then when New York is typically the first to come back when there's a recession and then Washington DC, because there's lobbying, there's always a very stable market. So the more office, not always, but it's typically very stable. So the more offices a firm has, the more stable it is and boutiques don't always have that.

So if you're at a boutique firm that does corporate work in New York city and the corporate market fails where you're probably out [01:29:00] of luck, you're going to be in a lot of trouble because that's all they do. So batik firms are risk from that perspective. The other thing is larger firms also have more experienced management.

And so what the more experienced management means is it means that that management is likely to have the ability to help the firm weather storms and and they'll know what to look out for and they'll know how to plan for things. And they'll make sure that they don't pay people too much money and I'll make sure that they don't make too many commitments and that they have reserves and lines of credit and all sorts of things.

And so boutiques don't always do all that. And because they don't do that, they can be much more, they can be much riskier. And you may be working for one or two attorneys in a boutique farm where. If you piss them off then, or if they have problems in their career, then how that affects you.

Whereas in a large law firm, you're going to be less you're going to be less isolated from that. Let's see here. Okay. Let's see. Let's see. Another question. the other ones. This is one of the last questions, but I have other ones. I have a lot of pre-loss cool, transactional experience, [01:30:00] AFA, find your parents don't know where to fit me into the practice.

They have more experience in this. So spend enough actual legal experience, top 10% law school and your suggestions, how to leverage my experience in interviews. Okay. I think one of the mistakes that people make and this isn't a mistake, but that the law firms aren't really, when they're interviewing law students, they don't really care.

They do care to some extent, but they're not that interested in your pre law school experience, really. What they're interested in is if they're asking, can you do the job? Can you be managed? Are you be managed?

We do the job. Long-term long-term do you want the job,

Arguably if they're interviewing you they believe you can do the job. So they're not really too concerned about that. But they are going to be concerned about whether or not you can manage, which means do they think you'll follow directions and do things will you do the job long-term until they get the sense you want to do something else?

So anytime someone has something else besides a law firm on their resume, when they're interviewing for a law firm job, unless it's like a clerkship, the law firms are always very nervous. So it's very hard to get a job when you're coming from in-house and so forth. And then how eager you see how much [01:31:00] you want to seem like you want to work in the law firm, which has to be, what you know about them and so forth.

And then if they like you, the biggest one is if they like you. So if you walk into a law firm and the law firm really likes you and you make a really good impression they're not really going to be too concerned about how to fit you into their practice. They'll figure they can give you anything to do, and you'll there and someone will train you and you'll be fine.

So there, when, especially when you're a law student, they're not really that concerned about what you did and because most of it is not going to translate into anything. It's not the fact that you have some experience doing something else. If anything, that's a liability. It's more along the line because you've developed thinking processes that may not be compatible with how that law firm does business.

So you need to be they're not really that concerned about it because let's see.

Let's see here, answer. What about in-house patent roles where IP portfolios are actually a light upon a generate revenue sort of a cost center? Yeah. So those are good jobs. So you can certainly managing patents inside of a in-house company can be a great job. That's a good point. Sounds like experienced patent agents should very much [01:32:00] go to law school.

Where are overwhelming more patterns? 10 year average. So it was fine to try. This could fit. Okay. So th there's an article that I wrote in BCG is called why law firms have no idea how to hire patent attorneys or something. So what happens with patent attorneys, how to hire patent attorneys?

It sounds what happens to patent attorneys. Most of the time is patent attorneys. A lot of him because they're engineers already making a lot of money and so forth, they will go or already patent agents. They will go to law schools that aren't top law schools who go to local law schools and then because they're working or whatever, they obviously, they won't obviously do that.

There then they'll come out of law school. And when they come out of law school, they will end up in a an, a law firm. That's not that large, they'll end up at a smaller law firm because they don't have the grades and so forth to get into a larger. Then they will move to a larger law firm after a couple of years of getting experienced and passing the patent Barnes tough.

So I don't necessarily think you, you should choose your law school based on the number of people going there. Okay. Let me just see [01:33:00] here. Here's another one. How long should you wait before? Changing from a some, a good question from a liar in a law firm to an in-house liar typically you can do that whenever you want.

But I would say when you only do that, when you're a hundred percent sure when you are near a hundred percent sure that you don't want to work in a law firm anymore.

And the reason is because it's very difficult to work in a law firm again, because it's very difficult to move from a from a law firm or from I'm sorry, from a from, to move from being a in-house lawyer back to a law firm. So some people don't like the business model of law firms.

They don't like whatever it is. So you only really only move in your a hundred percent. The other thing is I would recommend is you always want to get at least probably four to, I would say three to five years of experience in a law firm because a law firm will train you.

And you're going to get better training in a law firm most of the time. Then you will get in-house and the law firm training and working around the [01:34:00] law firm, people there, if you can invest that time earlier in your career, it's going to make you a better attorney. The other thing about being an in-house attorney is if you want to be general counsel of a major corporation, which can be incredible jobs that pay a lot of money and so forth you're generally going to be almost always better off if you move in house as a partner, as opposed to an associate.

So that's just something that I would say you're also going to be better off moving in house. If you move in house from a very well-regarded are very, brand name law firm, as opposed to a I known law firm because a law firm in-house companies like to hire people from the best type best firms.

Okay. Let me see here if there's any other questions. Okay. I think that's, those are about it. The other ones are pretty much the same think about. Answered. So I certainly appreciate all the questions and we'll do the same thing again on next week. And these were awesome questions again today.

So thank you everyone who ask questions and I hope this was helpful. What you guys learn. I do think that this topic today that there's also an article on BCG about this topic, but I do think it [01:35:00] is important that you decide, when you're choosing the law firms, the types that you ended up going to.

Thanks again, everyone. And I very much appreciate everyone that was here and all the questions today. Thanks.