Description

Let's get started. So today's webinar is about Switching firms. And it's something that I think a lot of people do and also want to do many times throughout their career. Especially at the beginning of your career, I think a lot of people when they get into their first firm there's a tendency to be criticized and maybe not feel like you're at the best firm you could be at.

And question the work that you're doing and many other things. And and that is perfectly fine, I think for a lot of people to wanna move earlier in their career but there's rules associated with moving and you are allowed to move in your career.

We were having a discussion and a group of us yesterday about this. But what happens is if you move too much. Meaning, if it looks like you're going to move one year and then you move the next year, or you move every two years, then law firms that hire you will know that if you have moved previously, that you're likely to move again and that you'll kind move like clockwork and every year or two.

And the problem with that is, is that they become unwilling to invest in you, unwilling to train you, unwilling to put you in the best work, and [00:01:00] also much less likely to hire you. And and you become more of a someone that they don't trust. And and it becomes much harder to get jobs.

Now there are people that are able to move with their qualifications earlier in their career a couple of times. But generally those oppor opportunities will dry up if you end up moving too much. So that's what I'm gonna be talking about today. This is a live webinar. What I will do is after this presentation we'll take questions and pretty much about anything any questions that you have about, anything you wanna talk about with your legal career, I will answer and and it doesn't have to be about this webinar and then and then we'll talk about it.

But I do believe this is a very important topic. It's something that you may think is not something a recruiter would talk about. But it is something I believe is very important and and I really do counsel people not to move unless they really feel like that there's a benefit to it.

And I'll talk about that today. Attorneys from large law firms and small law firms will often once or twice. Typically, during their first three to five years of practice. And what happens though is if you move [00:02:00] more than a couple of times, meaning if you're on your third move and or your fourth move and and maybe you do it every year, nine months, or every year and a half there's something probably wrong.

Generally, it's something that you're doing wrong or something in terms of your outlook or the way you're thinking about your career that you may need to make some changes to. And I certainly see resumes every day of very good attorneys that have been attempting to move several times and for the most part, regardless of where you went to law school and regardless of the quality of firm you're at any firm in the future is going to know that you're a big risk. And firms that see your qualifications. If you have moved more than once or twice, or even if you're on your first move, many times we'll ask why you're leaving.

There are definitely correct answers to that, which I'm gonna talk to you about right now. But they wanna understand why you're leaving and the reason. Is because they don't wanna invest in someone that's likely to be a bad investment because it's bad for the morale. When people come to affirm and leave there are people that are just drained wherever they go.

And there are people that are just not gonna stick with the practice of law. There are people [00:03:00] that will not work hard, that all sorts of things. And law firms are looking for that. And and when they see those moves, it's definitely a care, a sign that you're probably gonna do it again.

Law firms are gonna question your commitment to practicing law. They're also gonna question the quality of your work. Maybe you're being asked to leave and it gives the impression many times that you weren't valued at your former firm maybe for your work or maybe you also had social issues or social problems or other things.

And again, none of these reasons for moving are necessarily bad. And you can always find a better environment, many times if you're in the bad environment or if the work dries up at the firm, you're out. But you need to understand that if you've made this mistake a couple times that law firms start believing it has more to do with you than anything else.

And you need to really realize what law firms are thinking and when they look at your resume why those moves will negatively influence their decision to interview you. And then also when you get there, the type of work you receive if you are able to get hired. So your reasons to move need to make sense.

[00:04:00] And one of the things that that I think that and there's a lot of things I'm good at and there's things I'm not good at, but helping attorneys put together really good reasons for why they're moving are uh, is one of the most important jobs of someone in my position and also one of the most important jobs of you when you're looking to understand how to respond to those questions when.

When we send candidates to firms and our company we always have a section we write letters and put together packages on the candidates, but we always have a section that talks about why the person's moving. And and then if we don't go into enough detail, then the law firms will always come back with questions about why the person's moving.

And typically those answers that you give need to make a lot of sense. So the biggest reasons that make the most sense to law firms when you're interviewing tend to be the quality or the type of work that you're doing. Meaning the, you, you wanna do more sophisticated work or you wanna do work where you're getting more contact with clients or or sometimes there's structural firm changes, meaning the firm may have merged or various things happened, or [00:05:00] sometimes just the location is a great one.

Often the location is the best one. If you wanna move locations that can be a real real positive thing. So moving locations is also a good one. And one of the things that's interesting about locations is those are often the easiest moves. If someone is. Say you're from I don't know I dunno.

San Diego and you wanna return to San Diego and you're currently working in Chicago. Law firms are love it when people are returning home to, to market that they're from and typically that, those are really always the best reasons cuz there's not as many questions and while these are good reasons for making a move also a lot of times people when people are moving a lot of times the real reasons that they're moving often have to do with that their work may not have been well received at the firm. That people don't like their work that there's problems with the work, that people aren't giving them work because they don't like the work because they're difficult to work with. And being difficult to work with means that sometimes when you're given an assignment, [00:06:00] things go wrong and you have questions and certain people when they're given work will always do it well. There'll be no problems. Things will go off without a hitch, and there won't be questions. And many times that's what happens when your work isn't well received. Other people may be asked to leave a firm that they're at, or other people may be unable to get along with others in their firms.

And because they're unable to get along with others the people don't like them and give them work, or they're just problematical. And so that's what law firms are looking for. And they assume, by the way, if your work wasn't well received at the firm you're at, that it's not gonna be well received at the next firm.

If you were asked to leave at the firm, the previous place you were at, you're probably going to a lot of the same problems may happen at the next place. And then and if you're unable to get along well with others in your last firm many times, not always and probably not even 50% of the time, but a lot of the time you're gonna have the same problem the next firm.

These reasons, if you talk about things like that, if you talk about problems with people and you talk about. Messed up assignments [00:07:00] or those sorts of things. You're probably are being asked to leave for whatever reason. You're probably not gonna get hired by a new firm. And if you talk about the fact that you've had those issues in the past at other firms, you, it's also the law firm may not hire you as well.

Now, sometimes people do get hired giving these reasons, but generally the law firms are businesses and they wanna avoid people that they believe are problematic. In any job search, you really need to emphasize the reasons for moving that are likely not to prejudice the firms against you over the reasons that are likely to make firms wanna hire you.

So these are the reasons that employers like that you give for moving. And the first one is the quality and type of work. It's generally considered perfectly fine for attorneys to move due to the quality of or type of work that they're receiving. An attorney may move to transition from litigation to transactional work or vice versa, which frankly, it's not that common, but but that would be an acceptable reason for moving.

Because if you can't get transactional work and you wanna do transactional work at your firm they're not gonna be pred against [00:08:00] you for that. In addition a lot of times one of the most common reasons is people want to get access to more sophisticated work. If you're familiar with BCG our systems, we typically categorize attorneys and firms from one to five, where a one firm is a.

Kind of consumer facing where you have to work through things very quickly and the consumers aren't paying a lot of money. And then the five firms and candidates are the ones that are working on the largest matters where typically for large public companies with a lot of money where they're willing to spend a ton of money on things.

And and what that means is that the, if you go to a bigger firm or a more sophisticated firm, or a firm that does a different type of work, you can go more in depth, but you're likely to have less client contact. If you go to a smaller firm you may be able to work on more different types of things and have more client contact.

So people have reasons for moving to larger and small firms, people law firms like that. So smaller law firms will if you talk about wanting to have more client contact or go to court or would take lead on deals and larger law firms will [00:09:00] like it if you talk about wanting to get exposed to more sophisticated work.

This one's kind of a no brainer. If you're interviewing with a smaller firm, that's what you say. If you're interviewing with a larger firm or a firm that has larger clients, you say that, or a firm with smaller clients, you say that, and that works. I Law firms like it and and people. And this is a, there was a boom in the late 1990s, 2000.

There was also recently but it's not really going on anymore. But there was a boom where people could move from smaller firms to larger firms. And a suitable reason can always be wanting to do public company work or larger deals. If you're a corporate attorney if you're a litigator, it would be wanting to be a bigger cases and have more time to do a better job and at things.

And these sorts of answers are pretty much always permissible. And and and you're perfectly fine. Now, another reason that people will move is many times you'll say your firm doesn't have enough work. And and that can be very common. I. Anytime there's a recession or the economy slows down, corporate work will always slow down fairly dramatically.

Then and [00:10:00] different practice areas and different firms will always slow down, depending enough people are moving and other things going on. And reality this is a very common reason for people moving. You should always try to be in an environment where where there's a lot of work, because work is life and and if the work's drying up, then the odds are that there's something wrong with the firm.

If everyone's slow on work or there's something wrong in the economy, and you can always find a firm that does have work regardless of your practice here in most cases. But the problem is when you give that explanation the firm is likely to assume that you may not be giving work because your work is in a good quality.

You haven't been proactive enough in getting work, or people just don't like you. The, there's no and there's no rating system for attorneys, meaning attorneys aren't necessarily rated and they are by. Different publications, but it's not realistic to, to call peer review of getting your friends to review.

The work is not necess you're not rated there's no public rating that shows how [00:11:00] well you did as an associate at a firm or a partner or council. There's no way for them to tell that. The only way they can tell that is when they ask you if you have a lot of work or and that sort of thing.

So if you go into a firm and you say there's not a lot of work, but I've been given a ton of work and I'm very busy and everyone else build 1200 hours and I build over 3000, that's wow, this person's a superstar. They're doing something right, and people are giving them work. If you're not being given work, then that's a problem.

And the issue is anytime you say you don't have enough work in most firms, there's all, especially if it's a large firm, There's always going to be partners that have some amount of work. And so your job is to figure out who has the work and to get close to them. And that's almost a sign of the same sort of thing an associate would do when they're a partner trying to get work from clients.

So certain people are always busy, other people aren't, and it's like that in terms of that. So this is almost like a rating thing, and it's hard to explain, but it's a it's almost, if you say you don't have enough work, [00:12:00] Then the presumption is that you may not be doing something right. And the people that do the best work at any firm are given more work because partners talk about them.

The best partners try to use them they fight over them. And that's just how it works. So if you explain that there's not enough work at your current firm, which could definitely be true you need to be clear with employers that there's not enough work for any of the associates or others in the office, and you're not alone.

One of the reasons too, by the way, when people start saying, Oh, I wanna work at home, I don't wanna come into the office, and dumb. And I'm, again, I'm not trying to reign on anybody's parade here, but being close to people and being around them and being able to ask. For work and being social with them and and stopping by their office and chatting is one way to get work.

And that, so anytime you take a risk where you decide you're not gonna go to work and you're gonna work at home, or you you can do that, but when things slow down, are you gonna be well set to get work? Because if you don't have work can be very problematic. And and you always need to express this in a way to make it sound like you're [00:13:00] not attacking your current firm.

So if there is no work, you can say something like, We lost our largest client. All of our cases settled or our the stock market tanked and we're relying on something along those lines to make it seem like, you're not alone. Everyone's there. Maybe a lot of people have left the firm and there's been a lot of, whatever.

But you have to have some explanation that makes a lot of sense to the firm without, to the firm you're interviewing with that without saying anything negative and. And you need to make it seem like this is just there's nothing wrong with your firm and so forth. The but the employer is also always wondering and thinking to themselves is this really true?

Is this not true? Is this and the second they pick up something that makes it seem like you may not have a lot of work cuz something's wrong with you then that's the problem. And that can get you in a competitive legal environment. You can lose an opportunity if there's other people competing for the same job because people wanna hire the people that are the busiest.

And and but the ability to move, to get to a firm, to get higher [00:14:00] quality work of the type of work you wanna do shows a lot of ambition, a need for constant improvement. And if you can explain things in those terms it really works. There was a time when. Years ago when I went and I looked at all the people that I had placed in a year and and I looked at the narrative that I'd put together for them in terms of why they were moving.

And and then I also looked at the narrative of the people that maybe didn't get placed and why they were moving. And the narrative for people that are moving that to get hired and get the most offers and get the best jobs and get hired the most quickly always is something about. That they've reached this plateau at their firm where growth is no longer possible because of something beyond their control.

So it could be working on larger cases. It could be, or working on larger matters. It could be working on smaller matters. It could be their dreams to become a, I don't know, a plaintiff's attorney. And everything they're doing is the firm's moving to defense from plaintiff. So something along those lines.

And so anytime you explain matters [00:15:00] in that type of matter, type of, in that way the something in the firm is holding back this growth. And a lot of times it has to do with work that's very positive because especially if they can look at your previous firms and they can see, Wow, this person started a six person firm, then they went to a 30 person, then they went to 120 person, now they're at a 500.

And so these sorts of moves when there's constant improvement people love that. People love buying in, into stories of winners. And not only that, but if you're able to position your move in such a way that it looks like you're moving to a new firm and that new firm is going to be exactly what you need and it's going to fulfill this dream and you're gonna be there forever, that's perfect.

People love that. And and that is really one of the most important things I can teach you. I think about moving is how you put that together. If you put it together in a way where where that new firm is really meets all your goals. And in order to have that happen too, by the way, you mean you need to have goals and you need to know what [00:16:00] you want.

But very few people have. But if you have that's going to help you and. So moving because you don't have enough work needs to just be put across in a way that makes it look like you're trying to improve or you want to get a lot of experience in a certain practice area and you're not getting enough.

And and an example might be, and I'm I could give you a lot of examples, but I want to make sure that that you understand what I'm saying. One example would be that if you are trying to get a position in a, maybe you're a healthcare attorney and you joined a law firm to do transactional health care work.

And and that firm is now not doing as much transactional healthcare work. They've put you on corporate deals that have nothing to do with transactional healthcare work. And you've been doing that for six months and your whole background prior to going to law school was in the healthcare industry.

And then and then you joined a firm to do healthcare, and you're in their healthcare practice, but they don't have enough healthcare because all these people left are, I don't know, are they moving out of representing hospitals and [00:17:00] instead they wanna represent large corporations? I don't know, but something like that.

That is actually a very good reason, and people will like that, especially if the place you're joining does nothing but healthcare. Or has a very strong healthcare practice is growing. So having ambition and focus is really the best way to to get to, to focus on that stuff. The other thing is structural firm changes.

A lot of times firms will go through major structural changes and they can have adverse effects. Some things can be offices can close through, no fault of your own and and you could wanna look for a job because of that. Firms often merge key partners leave and and when those sorts of things happen a lot of times people will know about this in the legal community.

And so if you're looking for opportunities and that sort of. In, in something because of that. Those are all good reasons for leaving. And so you can often clarify previous moves on your resume if you've moved firms before and and you've done that because of there's been significant structural [00:18:00] changes and firms and and maybe there's no opportunity to make partner and that sort of thing.

Just, this is just an example of one firm now that's no longer in business. That was one point staff by two partners and associates Broback in early 2000. And then one partner left in 2001, then was staffed by one partner and three associates. And then and then there were other market forces back then, I think interest rates and things.

And so the work for the associates Decreas dramatically. And and so there just weren't a a lot of opportunities to make partner to do anything in, in, in a firm that had that small of a practice. And so someone leaving and in that sort of position would make a lot of sense. And these are the kind of stories by the way that, that we put together for our candidates when when we're working with them because it helps explain why the person's leaving and what's going on with them.

And explaining these sorts of things makes sense. And then the person that the law firm doesn't have to worry. That there's something wrong with a person that they're interviewing with. And they'll understand that they're not problematic, that there's forces beyond their control.

And so this is really your [00:19:00] goal in all of your interviews, is to and the way you put together your resume is to make sure that you explain the problems. And and so explaining those problems can be helpful. And again merger. And is another example. One of the things by the way that people are wondering about in the sidelines is why, if there's a merger, why if people have left the firm, why they didn't take you, why no one's protecting you.

And and many. And is it because of the quality of your work? Is it because of different reasons? And and maybe you say the partners that I was working with all went to another firm. They weren't able to bring any associates because they only wanted people of business. You have to have some sort of explanation and because these are the way people are thinking, they're thinking, why wasn't this person brought along?

Why didn't this person move? Why didn't they have people that were their advocates and that sort of thing. And I do wanna bring up one point too that I think is very important and and it's something that I've noticed among young associates. And then a lot of times people. [00:20:00] That become partners and are unsuccessful.

And but a lot of people and mainly young associates is anytime you come across as being too out for yourself, meaning you get very upset about. Not getting a bonus of a certain amount when you get very upset about the salaries not being raised in a timely manner. When you get upset about perks and benefits, when you get upset about having, not being able to take a day off or having to work at a certain time or having to come into the office in and every partner in every firm's mental note.

They're making mental notes with these things. And and then when there's time, when it's time for a partner to move and bring people, when it's time for when the economy slows down and certain people get work and other people don't, the people that are favorite of the people that aren't out for themselves, that are actually seen as contributors and and are playing the game in the firm's terms.

And so I'm not saying that that I, that there's anything wrong with being out for yourself, but what I am saying is [00:21:00] that the more people see that and the less you look like you're part of the team the more likely you are to be in trouble in the future and and have to move and and and your career, I'll be in trouble.

So a lot of things that people do is a product of lots and lots of decisions that you're making along the way in terms of how you react to things and how people perceive you and if they perceive you is not maybe against them or not for the team or whatever that can hurt you. Again, firms experience lots of structural changes all the time.

And and there's nothing really that you can often do about, especially if you're an associate. But one of the reasons I think that. That you're able to find jobs very quickly. Most people are, when there's major structural changes, is that people will look at that and say it wasn't in, it wasn't in your control.

It was someone else's issue and so forth. Okay. And then the final one, that's a very good reason is location a great reason for moving. And often the very best that I've seen is if you wanna move back to your home city to be near your family, your spouse's, family law firms love it.

And and it works that [00:22:00] it's frankly, one of the most effective reasons that you may wanna relocate for better weather. I I don't know but our change of scenery firms don't like those kind of reasons. They don't like joining a girlfriend often. Sometimes they do like joining a spouse.

But but honestly if you wanna move back to, to some place that you're firm or where you have a lot of connections the law firms like it because they assume. That you're moving for family reasons. If you're moving for family reasons, it shows you have roots there. You're likely to stay that your job's important to you, those sorts of things.

And and being close to your family is great. And people move to large cities all the time and take jobs in major markets and then decide at some point whether it's a few years in or several years in that they want to go home. And there's very people are very well received for the most part when they do that because they get very good experience in major legal markets.

And then this can be explained as a product of their ambition. They want to be exposed to very sophisticated work and then and then settle down at home firms like that. [00:23:00] They you can explain that by saying, I thought it was gonna be my only opportunity to practice in a major market before settling down.

And and therefore you embrace the opportunity if you commence your career in a smaller market and now moving to a larger one it's not where you grew up. Then then the discussion, the quality of work should be used. The reason this wor reason works so well is because if you're moving to a job and you're, if you're moving to a new firm in the market that you're already in then there's gonna be all these questions about.

If there were structural changes, why wasn't this person brought along? If the person's moving because there's not enough work, why don't they have work? And so all these questions go away when you're moving for to, to your home market or to another location many times especially your home market.

It just co connotes a desire for stability loyalty to your family. You're likely to stay there, you're gonna make things work. And and you and law firms in their experience have found that when they are the firm that hires someone that is moving home or whatever, to their home market or a market where their spouse [00:24:00] is from many times that they're likely to stay.

And and firms don't like to hear that you're moving to get better weather or a different type of market. They just it doesn't make sense to them. And and and it makes it seem like you won't stay. And most people that move for these sorts of reasons don't stay. People firms all over the country.

Have been burned by people that moved to a specific area only to be not like that area for whatever reason, or be homesick and then move again. People rarely move home to a market that they're from and then leave again. So if you're from a market like say on Grand Rapids in Michigan and you're currently working in Houston, Texas, and you move back to Grand Rapids, the odds are that you're gonna stay in Grand Rapids if you grew up there.

If you move back there and you'll probably stay at whatever firm you joined there for the rest of your career, the odds are very good as opposed to moving again or moving back to Houston or moving to another city. Conversely is if you're in Houston and you move firms, the odds are not that great that you'll stay at that firm.

Or if you're in Houston, you [00:25:00] move to a firm in Dallas, the odds aren't that great. So law firms are making a calculation when you move to another market. People move for weather, they move for dumb reasons like that, and that's usually not a very good reason. Your reasons should be related to it looks like you're gonna be stable.

And and that's what law firms think. And and the other thing happens a lot of times is people will decide they wanna move to a small town. So people will pick up and move to Savannah and places like that a lot. And and that if they don't have connections there often more often than not, does not work out.

You have to move for reasons. Ty, typically if you're moving locations, it has to be related to moving to be closer to your family or another reason is for the sophistication of the work. So if you are in a a smaller market and you wanna move to a larger market, then that is, those are very good reasons.

If you are in a larger market and you wanna move to a market that's maybe more specialized and does the type of work you want, those are also good reasons. So [00:26:00] people will move from New York to the Bay Area and things like that if they wanna work on. For tech companies that may not I mean they are now, but at one time weren't as prevalent clients for New York firms.

And and so reasons related to that, if you wanna do capital markets work and you're working in Chicago, moving to New York is of course a natural move from that, from, that's a smaller market to a larger market. And so it just depends on what you're doing. If you're doing biotech, patent prosecution and you're doing it in I.

Orlando moving to Boston where they do, a lot of that would be something that would make a lot of sense to firms. So the moving locations for the work and moving for other reasons can make sense. And and if you are moving to one of these markets like Las Vegas or so forth, or you typically, it has to be about the work that the firm does, the sophistication, or sometimes you just might be in a very rare practice area where there's not a lot of opportunities in the firm you're wor you wanna work with as the [00:27:00] best.

And and then that's okay as well. But so just, worry about it that way. And then another thing that I've noticed too, of important maybe to talk about a little bit right now is when the economy slows down and economies always go through ups and downs a lot of times what also happens is work moves from cities to suburbs and smaller markets.

I think that happens because many times the law firms in the suburbs and smaller markets will have lower billing rates. And but not only that, that represents a lot of smaller clients that may not be as affected by recessions as larger clients that cut down and have their own legal in-house legal departments and so forth that can handle the work.

So some of those reasons do make sense. Many times attorneys in in that are working in New York City may wanna work and they may live in Long Island or Connecticut and things like that, and they wanna work in the, in those markets to be closer to home. Those are good reasons and do work but.

It's just something to think about. Now the, one of the things I did wanna bring up, and this is the final [00:28:00] thing about locations, is the many times people will wanna relocate because their spouse moves. Your husband or wife may move if you're an attorney, may take a job in another city and and you may move to join them.

And law firms are not as open to that as you would think. If you are working in one market and your, their spouse moves to another market, and then you tell firms you wanna join that it's not always very positive because the idea that, at least the way the law firm thinks about it is that that you're, you could move at any point in time for your spouse's career.

And and that's not something that they're excited to hear because regardless of how well you do in your job if someone else's careers takes priority their investment in you and so forth is not as positive as the law firm investing in you may not be worth it for them. So these are the kind of questions that they're asking and and they typically do expect your career.

And I'm, again, I'm not judging this and I'm not, I'm just the messenger, but most law [00:29:00] firms if they're going to they want you if they believe that they want your career to, to take center stage. And and they wanna at least believe that. They, they want people that they believe are gonna be stable, that aren't gonna move, that do good work.

And and they don't want to think that someone else could suddenly get another job or lose their job and move to another city and you would move to, that's just they need predictability. It's the same reason why if you move to a city where you're from and you grew up then that's, stability.

Any time you give them any impression that there's not stability, then that will harm you. They need to believe that you're gonna be stable and and and that's just how it is. And I would just say it as an aside, I the, and large cities is very stressful at a lot of firms practicing law.

And and a lot of people can't handle it or and and have a very difficult time holding ma marriages together and so forth. I'm not, again, judging any of this, but it's just how it is. And having someone that they they're just that's just how it is.

Again, it's not how all law firms think but it [00:30:00] is how some of them think. So it's just something to keep in mind and and and law firms really are just ultimately trying to make good business decisions and looking for stability and the extent they can get that the happier that they are.

So anyways, those are the conclusions. These reasons again are often the most acceptable to firms. But they're only gonna be accepted if they're genuine and most of 'em been used a lot of times before. Firms will often check your references, maybe not at your current firm, but any other firm you've been at, they'll ask around to understand if you do a good job or not.

And and and I've heard these discussions and it's if you've worked maybe you worked someplace three or four years ago and. And you've had two jobs, consent, and maybe they talked to someone in your current firm that worked that was there three or four years ago, or who knows?

The no one's gonna give a an in depth appraisal of you. Most attorneys do not say negative things about other attorneys, contrary to what you may think. It's almost like [00:31:00] a, an unwritten rule that that law firms will not give negative references about people. They won't talk negatively about you even if you have a very bad experience there.

The idea being that people make mistakes and will learn from them, and and what comes around goes around. There is so almost like an unspoken rule that people will not say negative things, but often the, if they don't say anything that's something.

If you do go do a good job then people will say all sorts of great things about you. And and they'll go overboard many times. And that will generate offers and and rabbit enthusiasm. I've had people before hired by law firms in Hong Kong and all over the world and from the United States and vice versa.

But sometimes they would hire them without even with one interview, with this, with one Zoom or when, one phone call back before Zoom. And they would do that because there would be someone in a previous firm. They said can I call a reference at this old firm you worked at?

And they might call a very well known partner at a firm they worked at two firms ago, [00:32:00] or one firm ago. And the person will give a glowing reference and that's all they need. And then all of a sudden, a, an offer letter comes. So making sure that wherever you go you have very good references and people willing to say positive things about you and really mean it is very important.

And also not being on the negative side of things, when I say on the negative side of things, just not not being considered someone that's out for themselves. And calculating being someone that is really in it for for the firm. And isn't going to really be problem.

And you need to be very careful about moving. You should only move firms, in my opinion if you need to or if you don't need to if you're going to drastically and improve your career. And when I say drastically, it's going to have a much more measurable effect in your long term success if you move.

I was having dinner a couple nights ago with someone that was a chair of a practice group at I think what was a big pharma Gibson, I think, and it doesn't matter. But the point is that the, what this person was saying [00:33:00] was that that most people are on the partnership track at every firm until they're not.

And and so you're actually doing very well wherever you are until you're not. And and what that means is it means that that people will move and take themselves out of the running when they might not have to, or they will move for the wrong reasons and put themselves in a bad situation at the next place they go.

So then this is also now reasons for moving that you should avoid spending too much time on highlighting new employers. And and you're gonna have a very difficult time getting a job and hired from a firm that is well run. If you tell firms you're moving because people don't like your work you can't get along with others or you might have been asked to leave.

And and it's especially true if you've moved several times in your legal career and you're on your third or fourth firms. Most firms will assume at that point moving because of one of those reasons. Sometimes. It could just be something else, but most of the time you need to be careful.

Your work was not well received, is really one of the biggest ones. If [00:34:00] you've moved in the past it's really because your work wasn't well received. It's really pretty vital to do careful self-analysis or before explaining this reason to any employer. Different firms have different standards for their work.

So depending on the work in an insurance defense firm, for example where their their job is to keep the cost low for the insurance company it's common to turn a work that might have a bunch of typographical and other errors. It's not, doesn't mean you're a bad attorney, it just means you don't have the time to, to do things correctly.

But at other firms where the clients are paying massive hourly rates and giving you unlimited time to work on things these could be cause for dismissal. You have to understand what that means. So many times when you, if your work isn't being well received at a firm you may also be working with a a very challenging partner that is so difficult to work with that no one could possibly meet their standards.

And and and that just means that. You may not, that, it's not necessarily your fault. What I would say and what it's important for you to understand is that when the economy gets very [00:35:00] tough what happens, and I've actually, it's funny, I've been reading about it in the news la logistic companies.

But what happens is companies will, and law firms will start giving extremely unfair and harsh performance appraisals that they certainly wouldn't give in a better economy. And they're doing that because they want people to, to leave so they can have basically more money and and they, and then and it's basically it.

And so they don't have to pay you. And so you can't take that stuff as seriously as you might normally and large firms especially when you're a young associate you're, your work may be criticized with a high degree of severity. I remember at the second firm I was at, there was a partner there that had come over from a, another large firm and and he had a bunch of associates working for him, and he would give them the.

The most harsh and ridiculous performance appraisals just on the fly. He would show up in their office and tell them they were just horrible workers and doing horrible things with their work and go through their work with a fine tune of comb and [00:36:00] make them basically just completely their whole demeanor would change.

And that apparently was how that firm had trained people that he came from. And and so people of course wouldn't like that. A lot of people would leave. But the point is that people are expected many times and to rise to that level. And there's nothing wrong with getting a lot of criticism if it's valid in your first several years of practice if you can learn from it.

And and and large law firms that have very high quality of work expected do push people very hard and give them very hard reviews, so the quality of work will improve. And and that's actually a blessing to be exposed to that because a lot of times you won't get that. And so just because you're having a very difficult time earlier in your career isn't necessarily something that should upset you and and shouldn't be a cost to leave.

It shouldn't be also something that makes you want to. Quit the practice law and things like that. And but the level of detail that's required of the best attorneys is often [00:37:00] not something that you're gonna pick up in law school. And most of that stuff is taught in formal and informal reviews of attorney's work.

And I'll just say that I've noticed, and I, as part of my. As the CEO of this company, we have outside attorneys that, that I've worked with and then talked to on a daily basis. And they're of various qualities and but the best ones are often are from depending on the practice here, it can be from the largest and most demand firms.

And it's very fun to watch because they can take apart arguments and things and in a way that you would never see from from a lot of other attorneys. All this, if you're in a firm and your work is being dissected aggressively like that, it's actually a blessing that will make you a much better attorney in the long run.

It's not a reason to leave it, it has nothing to do with your ego and and you need to get to a point where your work's not being criticized and where you understand that form of thinking. And then after three or four years you, you should pretty much know exactly what's expected of you.

And and so I would always recommend if your work's not being well received [00:38:00] wherever you're at that's not a reason to leave. It's actually a reason to improve. And people will be actually very excited when in your firm, when they see it improve and will notice it and will often say something to you.

And and most attorneys. Do often think about if their work's being criticized that they they need to leave and look for a new firm. And they, sometimes they'll go in house where they're not criticized. And and it, I believe this criticism of your work is a blessing. What's interesting is everyone.

And this is an aside, but everyone has an ego and they protect their ego. So people wanna believe that they're an exceptional attorney, or people may wanna believe that they're very good at this or good at that. And so they ignore any evidence of the contrary. And in reality as an attorney or whatever you do, you're always developing and learning new things and getting better.

And the second you think, Oh, I'm an incredible attorney, you're probably not. That, and that's something to remember. So you, if your work is being, [00:39:00] Harshly criticized or criticized at all. You should not be mad at the person criticizing your work. You actually should be glad because you can't protect.

If you're trying to protect your ego then you're not, you've stopped developing. And people will often leave firms because they're protecting your ego. They'll leave because they don't want to get business. If they have to get business in a firm that's protecting their ego. You wanna think you're a great attorney and everything is required.

You're not, If you're work, if you're getting bad reviews you need to improve and become the best. And and what a great opportunity to have your work critiqued. You would not be critiqued like that if you were a solo practitioner. You wouldn't be critiqued. And that's how it works.

And I, I think a lot of people when they do move they move because their work is criticized and they try to put themselves in situations where they feel where they're gonna avoid that. And anytime you're avoiding that, you're avoiding growth. And and and that's not a good idea. You can't isolate yourself and you try, should not try to, to avoid that growth.

And it's just, this is just me giving you coaching and pep talk. But it is important. [00:40:00] And these are blessings because the skills you get, especially at the best firms early in your career, whether you're taught how to think about things, will. And they'll help you throughout your whole career.

And and then you can fix them and and be an example for other attorneys and and then do that, bring that level of detailed thought to other matters that you work on when you're working on matters for other attorneys and so forth and and the future. Or when you're going up against opposing counsel and regardless of what the case is I was thinking today about someone that had done some documentation for me about I don't remember what it was.

It was some sort of, I think it was a will or a trust or something years ago. And I'd had a really good attorney look at it years later. And that attorney came back and found like a hundred things that this person had missed. And which is fascinating. And that attorney was from a big firm.

I think they'd come from I don't know. I'm in a huge New York firm, like a very good one. And the point is that when you learn to think in that level of detail, you become much better. And and leaving because your work's not well received is really just an opportunity [00:41:00] to improve. And and it's a blessing that you can be in that kind of environment.

Now, if your work is, if you're told everything you do is amazing, you're told you're great that may make you feel very happy, but at the same time that may not help you. And I'll just give you one quick example. It's not really that important of an example, but it's, it just occurred to me when I was in.

Up until I was in, I think ten ninth up until when my ninth grade year I went to a school in Bangkok and and I was a straight A student, like all ass and thought I was amazing. But the only problem in that school is it was a good school, but people were not going to great colleges from there.

And then the next year I went to a very good school in Michigan where I think the average grade point I mean was like, it was a B curve, and I think our valedictorian might have had a three, four or something. And and it was much, much harder. But everyone at that school went to very good colleges and did well there.

Not everyone, but a lot of people. And the only point I'm making is that if you go to an environment where where it's very hard to succeed and where [00:42:00] people are criticizing your work and where you're then that's probably going to make you develop a lot more. And and the world takes it very seriously.

So just when you go into interviews you can't really talk about your work. Not being well received, I think is one of the biggest things. And and you should not wanna move because your work's not being well received if you can't fix it. Now, there are certain environments where maybe you can't fix it, and so you can move to a firm that's not going to evaluate your work as hard, and it, but just remember that if you are in a very competitive environment, Often a blessing.

Another one is not being able to get along with others. Every law firm is very difficult from a political standpoint. There are people that won't like you. There are people that will like you. There are people that won't care. I've said before on these webinars, at one third of the people you meet won't like you.

One third will like you. The other third won't care. And and that's just how it is. I'm sure there's people that you see to this day around wherever you work that you just automatically don't like for whatever reason. And that's okay. That's just how it is. But you need to be able to get along with others in every environment you go, you're in.

[00:43:00] And and and people, certain people have very good social skills and others don't. There was a guy that was in my law school class that I think is it doesn't matter what firm he's at, but he's the head of a major, one of the top 10 largest firms in the world. And and best personality imaginable.

Just liked everyone. Had smiles for everyone knew everyone. And that's very positive. It's probably more positive than and again, this is someone that wasn't a great student or anything, but it was just very well liked. And being able to get along with people is very important and a lot of people can't.

So people. Go into interviews, they'll have complaints about people. They'll make slides, they'll they'll say negative things or give and just sorrow grapes about a certain person or groups of people or how things are being done. And no one likes that. And you have to really be positive.

Even the most negative environments the best attorneys can don't say anything negative. I've interviewed people before and represented people that are leaving firms because the partner that they worked [00:44:00] with is going to prison. And and I actually worked with one guy that had worked with it doesn't matter.

I shouldn't even say that person's name cause I forgot who he is. But the, but I've worked with people that have worked in firms. These people that they were working with who committed these horrible crimes or been all over the news for doing bad things. And and some of them are just, they won't, they're just so respectable.

They won't say anything negative about the person that they work with. They're just, they come across as very likable. And the people that do that get a lot of jobs. And people that are drama kings and queens don't. So if you're invi, if you're critical of people in the firm and you're critical of people that you worked with, that can undermine the economic engine of the firm.

And what that means is it means that people will have a much more difficult time. You wanna, you want to be someone that, wherever you go, you raise all boats and you make people around, you feel good. And and where people like you and where you create a positive work environment, there are people that will go into work environments and and improve the morale of everyone just by their presence.

And there's people that go into work [00:45:00] environments and hurt the morale. And and you have to decide which one you're going to be. I personally believe that you will have a lot more success and happiness in your career. You're the kind of person that that is able to improve the morale of the people of people around you, because people will want you around.

If they don't, then they. You have to think about these things. And then if employers see you as someone that improves the morale then they're gonna like you. If they see you as someone that drags down the morale, then they're gonna avoid you. And the most sophisticated employers the ones that know how to what they're doing, will hire people that bring the morale up of the people around them.

And and and if You're saying negative things about stuff people that is going to hurt you. Personality conflicts can hurt you. So if you have personality conflicts with partners and other people typically that, that portrays you as someone that works against the system and not for it.

You as, especially as an employee and not an owner of a law firm are expected to to get get along with your superiors and figure out how to do [00:46:00] it. It's just the game. And that's your responsibility to figure out how to work with people, how to do all these things. Firms want attorneys that can deal with a lot of different types of people, including clients and and that have the skills to do that.

And and that's one of the things that they're interviewing you for. The best attorneys have the best political skills. They, the ability to bring in clients and get along with different types of people. And and so you have to look if you're moving if it was because you weren't able to get along with others, you should understand why that was and consider your approach what you did wrong within those firms that may have contributed to your own happiness and and why you're leaving and whether or not there's anything you need to change in your approach.

An interesting point that I just wanted to come to make it again as another aside, but. Is to realize that if you're unable to get along with others in your firm, you have to understand most people, because they want to protect their egos, will always blame others. So they'll blame others for the problems that they're [00:47:00] having.

They'll blame the person that they're having the problem with. And that's probably okay. You can do that, but ultimately you have to realize that there are people that are able to get along with everyone and or most people. And You're ultimately responsible for whatever's happening to you in your environment.

And so accepting responsibility and realizing how you may have contributed to that and thinking about things in those terms can be very helpful. I had I've had a lot of instances in my career where things have gone poorly with people that that have worked for me for one example.

And but I always like to think about what could I have done differently to make things go better? And and when people, when I'm working for people, what could I have done differently to make things go better with them? And usually you'll find that that every environment that there's something that that you may have done to contribute to whatever, not getting along with people and just realize that's a lesson and great.

You, you learn these lessons and then and then you are able to improve. And then this is not really [00:48:00] anything that I don't need to make a sales pitch. And then the next one is asked to leave. Law firms ask people to leave all the time. Some do it directly. A lot of times will do it indirectly, but you have to make sure that's really what they're saying.

But if you ask been asked to leave in your past firms, you typically don't wanna bring that up either. You need to understand. Most attorneys most people get fired at some point in their career. They may get fired for things that are their fault. Sometimes it's not your fault but most people have been fired or asked to leave or had problems.

And and how you handle it is the important thing. Most attorneys uh, When they're fired are told that there's something wrong with their work. That's not always the case, especially if you're a young associate and you make mistakes. I This is just par for the course, and it's not anything serious.

You shouldn't worry about it. Many times you may be asked to leave for for reasons that have nothing to do with you. Maybe the firm just doesn't have the ability to make partners or doesn't have enough work. Who knows? Or the work to change. So you may be asked to leave for those reasons.

And and [00:49:00] sometimes you're asked to leave because you don't get along well with others. You make people comfortable or you undermine people's authority. But very few firms ask people to leave because their work is poor or something. That's just the reason they give. But it's really not the reason.

There's usually something else going on behind the scenes. And but the problem is if you talk about that and you bring it up, Then you're casting yourself as someone that the law firm is gonna be uncomfortable taking a risk on. So it's very difficult for people that are laid off to get jobs because again, like I said at the earlier, there's no rating system for attorneys.

And what that means is there's no, you don't come out of a law firm with a rank of a 90% like you do out of a law school with grades. You come out of a law firm with signals, and those signals are how what can I read from this person? And so if you say you were asked to leave, that's like getting a B minus as opposed to an A or a c plus because an automatic C plus or B minus, because it gives law firms [00:50:00] the impression that maybe you did something wrong and you weren't, and other people probably weren't asked to leave.

There's something about you that would've asked that the firm would've asked you to leave instead of others. In our company for example, there's people that are so valuable that they would never be asked to leave. And I've even had people where that are so good that. That if, like I've closed down an office for example, and said, I don't know what you're gonna do, but you're amazing.

So I want to keep you on and we'll figure out a job for you later. I'll just keep paying you. So there's the best people are always kept around and and so you need to put yourself on the side of being that kind of person that the law firm's always gonna wanna have because you need to do really good work and be likable and all these things.

When you're asked to leave, you're not. And and so you need to understand that even when law firms get extremely slow if there's something very special about you in terms of your work, people will protect you. So it's just, it's unfortunate, but that's how it works. And if a law firm gets a sense that you've [00:51:00] been asked to leave, that's basically gonna hurt your kind of invisible rating.

And and it's something to to think about. And just this is another point that I just made and I think it is important, is that a lot of times the best firms will often give the best recommendations to associates fast to leave. They'll give incredible recommendations.

And then and smaller law firms, I don't know what it is, will give the harshest recommendations. And so it's to some extent when you go to the better firms and the bigger firms they often will be much nicer when you leave. And I think that has to do with the fact that a lot of the biggest firms can't have people sticking around too long because they do rely on a a constant stream of associates.

They want. People to say nice things about them when they leave and have a better experience. I don't know because very few people can make partner. But I've very rarely seen this is in my whole career. The largest firms, whether it's New York or Los Angeles or Chicago will very rarely give negative evaluations of any former associate.

I, I've had situations where, People have literally [00:52:00] had mental breakdowns and passed out in the office from using, just incredible stories that would just are almost humorous cuz they're bad. But the law firms will, you'll call them up and they'll say wonderful things about the associates.

So that, that's one of the benefits many times of working at the best firms, they're not only are they protecting the people that have worked there, but they're protecting the, they're protecting people later. And I don't know why it is, but a lot of smaller associate firms are not like that.

But be very careful about these negative signals. And that's really the the conclusion of all this, you just you need to really transmit to the law firms the idea that you're growing, improving, that you wanna move for those reasons that you're stable that you do good work, that people like you and you get along with them.

Those are really the big things. And just keeping that front and center and that you have goals and this next firm will meet your goals. And many times if you move too many times firms are good. Just gonna conclude that you're gonna move again no matter what those reasons. And And most of the reasons that firms candidates move many [00:53:00] times are really unrelated to the acceptable reasons for moving.

And and and I could spend a lot of time talking about the different reasons, but you basically, what you need to commute, what you should tattoo I don't know if tattoo is the right word, but what you should write down and understand is that you want to mo, you want law firms to think you're moving because you're stable and a good attorney.

That's really the crux of it. Anything else that connotes a bad attorney and and the problems or un lack of stability or unable to get along with people is a negative. And then the unacceptable reasons would be I'm moving because I'm unstable, unable to get along with people and not a good attorney.

That's the, this webinar. So I will, what I'm gonna do is to quick break just for a couple minutes and then when I come back I'll answer questions about this about the webinar and really any other questions that you have about your career. And typically it's good to ask a lot of questions cuz I will stay as long as anybody wants to answer them all.

And thank you for being here and listening to us today. I hope it's been helpful and I will be back in a few.

[00:54:00] All right, so we will go to questions. Just gimme one second. I'm just gonna pull up a a word document here real quick.

Q&A

All right. Questions are my favorite part of the week. I I love these questions. They're always really good questions. Let's see here. Okay, so the first question is is moving locations because you're not passed the bar in the state that your current firm is in a resulting your firm money go A negative reason to relocate Unless it's in the states I'm interviewing with.

Yeah, I think. Lots of people do that. It's it's actually fairly common to move in, in, if you pass the bar in one state to, to only move to that state or ones where you can do it. There are people used to, I don't know if they do it anymore, but they're if you can wave into DC for example.

And so people would always take the bar in the easiest states for the highest pass rates. And and some people just have problems passing the bar. One, one thing I would just say this is I'm sure there's people on this call that we'll, Bar exam results shortly and may not pass.

And but most of the [00:55:00] times, if you're if you don't pass the bar, most law firms would give you at least a couple chances or at least one chance, I think, to take it again. But most of the time, not passing the bar, I think is related to just not spending enough time studying. I don't, it's un like the, unlike the LSATs or the SATs or something it's testing stuff that pretty much can be learned for the most part.

I, if you wanna be in a certain market, I don't think I would say that everyone, regardless of who you are, can pass the bar. You just need to spend a lot of time studying and and probably more than you, a lot more than you spent the last time. But but yeah, you can certainly move.

If you didn't pass the bar and you were relocated it's it may be considered a negative. Reason to relocate, but it's not necessarily that bad of a thing. Okay. How many times is too many times to switched law firm jobs? So it's not just you can switch a lot. So let, there's a couple there's a couple ways to look at this as an associate or something along those lines.

If you [00:56:00] move you get a couple chances. So you maybe three times in five years. It depends on your, something like that times in five years. But there's two, two things that you're doing. You're either as a partner, who knows? I would say, so there's of two things that you're selling.

One as an associate, you're selling as an associate. You're selling promise stability, and likelihood to, and, quality of work and I guess quality of work, etc. And can we make money from. And so you're basically selling those sorts of things. So if you move too much, that's going to move too much.

That's going to impact that. So it's, it you when people look at your resumes and associate or anything else what they're looking for is it's almost like you, you'll know it when you see it. So if someone went to their first firm and they were there two years and then they went one, two firms, the one [00:57:00] firm one year each after, then that's probably too much.

So people get a sense of the people that are likely to stick around. One thing that I've noticed is someone that moves a lot early in their career, almost always will do the same thing later in their career or many times throughout their entire career. It's nothing to really worry too much about.

But if you are moving too much there's probably something about yourself that's making you move and what it should be, the reason it should, the reason you should move,

you should move. Honestly, this is the main reason, is because you are improving and know what's best for you. Best for you. So it's. More stability more stability more appropriate work, that sort of thing. But and if law firms believe that you're gonna be much better off, but that's the reason you should move.

And but as a partner how many times can you switch jobs? Partners are [00:58:00] essentially it's a different relationship with a partner to a law firm than an associate, which is interesting. So, A partner is really can really, can be a free agent and and by a free agent, I mean they're essentially the law firm supports their book of business and with infrastructure, which includes,

Associates, re recruiting associates, recruiting staff associates then secretaries and all that sort of stuff in exchange for money. That's how it works with partners. So partners, a lot of times there are partners out there that will move firms every three or four years and have been doing so for 30 plus years.

It just depends. So partners now that's a partner that does that too much, is not going to be welcome at the best firms many times, but they still can get plenty of jobs cuz they're just basically going to a law firm and asking a law firm. Pay them a percentage of the money that they bring in.

It's not always a percentage, but [00:59:00] something along those lines and then support them. Whereas associates are selling the promise of stability and the quality of the work. And so if law firms believe that what they see from you is not likely to to result in, you're likely to do the same thing.

They're not gonna like it very much. That's just so you, and then people that move like that don't get as many interviews and it's just how it works. And it can depend on the economy. So sometimes when the economy's very good and associate can get away with moving a lot whereas if the economy wasn't good, they won't.

But in general that law firms will evaluate your movement the same way they will evaluate. It's just a, it's a sign of your quality. One thing I would like to say, and I is your law school is a sign of the quality of your the. What you've done before going to law school and maybe your mind if you get into a really good one.

But but it's not a sign of the what type of attorney you [01:00:00] are of whether or not you're a quality law firm employee. And and those are completely different things. And I've had law firms tell me before just don't send us people from El Law School. It's we don't want 'em, we don't like them, They don't do a good job.

They're full of themselves. Who knows? But that this is and sometimes they'll say that about other law schools. I've heard people say that about different law schools around Los Angeles and LA or, so you just have to be very careful about moving too much. And and and yeah, and it's a sign up quality.

Okay, let me see here. What is considered firm hopping and how can it they can affect my ability to get a job. Okay. So firm hopping basically means that you're just continually moving around. And and and what that says is it says that you're not committed anywhere you go.

You go and you just hop around for the next best opportunity. Now the reason that this is a really good question, I think, is that if you're firm hopping what that means is you're never [01:01:00] really committed someplace and you're always you're never, you what a firm Hopper does.

I guess it's important to look at what a firm, what does a firm hopper do? So a firm hopper will typically interview very well, and they know how to do it. Then at the first sign of, and then they'll start the new firm, very enthusiastic looking ho looking enthusiastic. And then they will very quickly lose their enthusiasm

and and stop giving a hundred percent and start giving, 90, 80, 70, 60 until they're called out on it. And then they will start looking for a new job, for a new job, or maybe even before. And and they will a lot of their efforts will be related to. Avoiding work complaining, [01:02:00] etc. So this is what a firm Hopper does.

Now, it's not to say that there's anything wrong with leaving firms and moving to better opportunities. And you should always try to improve your, go to a firm where if you can move to a better firm where you get better training if you can. There's nothing wrong with any of that.

And I've seen people move, be in seven firms before they make partner, but each firm successive move is a much better move than the last. And and great things happen. It's very rare that people move in that many firms before being a partner, but they, they do. But if a law firm believes that you're not likely to stick around it's very difficult for them to make an investment in you.

And that investment is training. It's giving you sophisticated work. It's, it is introducing you to clients. It's having. It's trusting you with information just there's lots and lots of things. So just put yourself in the situation of of the law firm. I gave this, we talked about this, I gave this example last week when we talked a little bit about you hiring.

And I like to give the example. Most people that are [01:03:00] attorneys that have kids will hire nannies and other people to work with their kids and or to take care of their kids. And and it's just, again, I'm not bringing this example up cuz there are people that won't.

But let's just take the example of a nanny. If you interview a nanny to take care of your kids and that nanny has a job every three months, that's gonna make you a little uncomfortable because you're gonna train the nanny to do everything that you want done a certain way, and then all of a sudden the nanny's gonna look for a new job and it's gonna, your kids are gonna be like, Where's my nanny?

And meanwhile, this relationship's been formed and everything. that's not good if you're the employer, the. If you're interviewing someone that has a job every three months, just think about how, and again, I'm using three months because your child's not gonna need a nanny forever. It's, but maybe six months.

But again, if a nanny's moving very frequently, is that gonna make, are you gonna wanna hire someone like that? Would you think that with smart, wouldn't you question Why is this nanny moving so much? Why have they been in these different cities and what, what's going on? And you, it would be strange.

And that's [01:04:00] Really the way you want to think about it the same way. Just put yourself in the the situation of the employer and and think about why they wouldn't like that, and that's what firm hopping is. And you don't wanna do that.

And again, if you're doing that sometimes, one of the things I would say is a lot of people will firm hop and move. And I brought this up again earlier today, but a lot of people that are firm hopping are doing so because almost like they're trying to protect this view of themselves is very successful or very good or very, and they're not getting reflected back to them from the firm what they want to hear.

And there was years ago, I don't even remember a long time ago, like seven or eight years ago maybe not even that, but there was all these discussions about millennials needing all this reinforcement and being told they're great and everything like that. And and then they would go into firms and the firms wouldn't do that.

And then then they would leave and get upset. And so you and so you don't need to be in a position where the, a job of a firm is not to protect your [01:05:00] ego. And and you need to go and you can. You need to, whatever negativities you're exposed to most of the time. And again, it's not all positive.

You need to think about the best way to to, to deal with that. But but firm hop is not the answer. What are some of the potential reasons why switching jobs too often to law firms questionnaire long term commitment, pressure law? I think I've answered that, but the idea is that they don't believe you're go, they they, it's dangerous to client.

Relationships relationships. It costs the client money to get new people up to speed.

Your your movement likely moving cuz something wrong, likely moving cuz of issues with you. Not always, but likely meaning you're likely moving because of issues with you, which would mean something like you are. It, a lot of times people will be at like four or five big firms.

So they might be at like four or five, like AMLO 50 firms. And and they'll always have something negative to say about each of the four or five firms that they've been at. But these firms might have been around for [01:06:00] decades, each of them, and be growing. So is it really the firm or is it you? So firms you, again, accepting responsibility for whatever went wrong is important, so I always recommend that.

So accept responsibility but but firms are just going to believe that your reasons are performance related. You're protecting your ego from criticism that you're that you are just not suited to law firm work. And sometimes people just like the attention. Some tension of recruiters, the firms, recruiters, firms, et cetera.

And and again, I'm not judging this. I I personally never liked interviewing. I thought it was horrifying. Horrifying is not the right word, but but it's just, large law firms with depending on the firm, you're, it's not always the funest place to go into. And but some people really like the attention.

They like the thrill of getting interviews. They like the attention from recruiters calling them. They like the massaging, talking to people and meeting new people feeling validated, all that stuff. And and who [01:07:00] wouldn't? There's nothing wrong with that. But but your need for validation, need for outside validation.

You may not be getting validated in your current firm, but you can certainly go out into the marketing and get validated. That's fine. But that's one of the reasons why firms may not like that. Cuz if you need outside validation, you're probably always going to need it to some extent.

Okay. Let me see. Okay, so this is let me see here. This is a. Join the call. Okay, so if I wanna become, so if you're staff attorney, you wanna become associate typically what happens is the law firms this is just a kind of a rehash of a lot of stuff that I've covered on a lot of other calls before the law firms can be ranked just as candidates can on this this kind of scale here.

And and I, the recently I learned about the scales. My father used to do admissions at Harvard and are for Harvard, I guess would be a better word, answer. But and this is how they rank candidates. And so this is the five and this would be right and this is how they used to, I dunno if they do it anymore, [01:08:00] but this would be working for largest companies, clients most prestigious.

Most prestigious. And this is an important working for large clients, money, no object. And this is, this is actually very important. So if you haven't seen this before, who everyone that's on this college should be helpful. So most unlimited budgets would be one. Oh, budgets.

Limited budgets some limited budget,

Some limits. Medium to large clients,

some small businesses.

And then you have small cons consumers, small business,

Some limits spending, not much ums

cost,

Small consumers. So[01:09:00] when a, anybody that's on this call that's an attorney you very caution.

Is working for a firm that can be crossed from a one to a five. And and a five firm are, is your firms that are working for clients. They typically are in the largest cities. They could send a client a bill for a million dollars a month or 2 million when the client may look it over.

But pretty much they're gonna pay it and they're gonna trust that the firm knows what they're doing. A four firm is your typical kind of AM law 100, 200, maybe mainly 100. But those clients will pay bills of hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. They have the money, they're, most of 'em are public companies, are very successful clients.

They will question the bill. But the, not necessarily and let me just see, there's a, I think, let me just put up this URL for you guys. And I'll just sort you guys to look at, cuz explains that and it's gonna answer your question. But I just gimme one second.

I'm ranking, I think ohs, Oh, hold on. Oh.

[01:10:00] I'm just looking for an article that might be helpful for you.

Looks like I haven't found it. That's okay. But the point is that if you're a staff attorney, what happens with a lot of times with staff attorneys is if you're a staff attorney you may be hired by a five firm to be a staff attorney or a four firm, or even a three firm. If you're taking a job as a staff attorney in a firm that's maybe a little better than you would normally get into.

The only way you can move from being a staff attorney to being an associate typically is to to move down to a smaller firm and then move up later. So like a lot of times people will say, I'm a staff attorney at Sidley and Austin, which is an amazing great firm, SI Austin. And and I'm just giving them as an example.

It's a large firm, it's a, it's a well respected firm. And they'll say, I'm a staff attorney at Sid and Austin, but you may have gone to a third tier law school. And never law school and and never be able to get into a firm like Sydney. And it's not anything wrong with you, it's just how it is.

Most people can't and there's nothing [01:11:00] wrong with you that you can, I again, most attorneys can't get hired at a firm like that. I 95 more than that probably could never get hired, a firm like that. But they will hire you as a staff attorney. And so saying you work at Sidley and Austin as a staff attorney doesn't mean that you really work at Sidley and Austin as an attorney.

It means you were there as a staff attorney. So you may have to go to a three firm or a two firm in order to get hired as an associate. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Again, 90, 95% of all attorneys probably work at two to one to two firms. There's nothing wrong with working the one or two firms in terms of what I do as a recruiter.

Certainly I place a lot of people at fours and fives, but but most of the activity in, in the US legal market is that firms that are one, two, and threes. In some states there's probably, there might not even be a three firm. And if you've got North Dakota, maybe there's a couple, but there's no four and five.

So the point is that and if you're a staff attorney or you're in a firm that you don't, that you're at a firm where you may wanna move to a, you're gonna have [01:12:00] to move to a smaller firm. So people do this all the time. They mix it up. It's very interesting by.

I've been working, I've worked with people before that are at like a three firm and a very good job making good money, and all of a sudden someone comes along and says, Hey, you wanna be a staff attorney at this four firm? And the person's Heck yeah, I want to get, I want to get this from on my resume.

Not realizing that if they move from a three to a four firm as a staff attorney all of a sudden the they're not gonna, they're no longer have the opportunity to be partner. They no longer have they're a second class citizen compared to an associate. I All these problems. Anytime you wanna move up in terms of a firm you're really going to probably need to move from, maybe you're at a three firm, you're probably need to move to a two or one firm.

Now the other thing that's interesting too, this is just in terms of movement, and I really like this example, if you're moving, really what you wanna do, if you move, if you start out at a two firm break, mainly working for small businesses, doing litigation or something, and you wanna move to a bigger [01:13:00] firm and you, after year one you move to.

A three firm where you're working on medium sized businesses, and then a year later you get an offer for to work at a four firm. That's amazing. Like great. You've, even though you've moved a lot that's a good thing. But it, it deals with the size of the. The types of work you're doing.

Cause your goal really is all of these rankings are all they're doing is they're putting you in touch with money greater and greater amounts of money. So a one rank firm, the consumer is gonna be very cost sensitive. They may only wanna spend $500 and that's it. A two firm is also cost sensitive.

Maybe if you send them a bill for more than two or $3,000, they're gonna, their ears are gonna perk up. A three firm, you can probably send them firms 20,000 or 10,000 a month. Maybe not but maybe more. And the four firms more and more. But as you get into this, these higher level firms, they just write checks like the companies, these are public companies or large companies you read about that can afford to spend a lot of money.

So an attorneys, when an attorney's moving, a lot of [01:14:00] times what you're doing is you're mo if you're moving to firms to pay more, you're moving to get access to to firms that have, that where you're working essentially for larger clients that will allow you to do more in depth work.

If you're on this call, an example would be like an insurance defense firm. And again, there's nothing wrong with insurance defense. It's typically going to be a two firm. It's just because the, they're very cost sensitive, the insurance companies, and that's how it should be. There's nothing wrong with that.

Whereas a meeting to large client would be more likely to do commercial. Litigation at a medium firm. So none of this is really that that important other than to understand that as a staff attorney your goal. If it was, if I was a staff attorney, I would realize that I would have to move probably from a very good firm to a lesser firm in order to get a title.

And that's mistake I think that a lot of people make is they be is they believe that being at a better firm is more important. And it's actually it's probably more important to, if you are a staff attorney, to be an associate in a different firm. [01:15:00] Okay. Following discussion, would a young attorney who never moves in the first several years be perceived negatively?

No. There's absolutely nothing wrong in that moving, as a matter of fact. It's a very good thing. So not moving shows a lot of things and and what not moving shows is it shows that you're committed that you make things work. That your wo things work. Your work is well received that you're that you are emotionally stable, probably emotionally stable and get along with others and get along with others.

That you that you can take criticism and don't le take criticism,

take criticism that you what else? It shows that you get on, just a bunch of great things. The not moving and again, I'm, I make a living, moving people, so I but I, again I'm telling you, there's what the way it's perceived in the market and it's perceived very positively.

Now if you go to I don't know Stanford Law School and you start out at a one firm meaning you're doing consumer bankruptcies and stuff, and [01:16:00] you do that for 30 years it's weird. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's. People may wonder why you didn't challenge yourself more if you were capable of doing that especially over the top of your class and everything.

But there's not, again, there's nothing wrong with that. And maybe you're, but but if you believe, if you're stable and believe that, you're at a firm that's challenging you and the location you're in and you don't need, and you then Yes. Then staying in the firm, you and you don't move.

It's great. People love it. And and frankly, I talk to people all, I talk to people all day. I talk to business people. I talk to people asking me how to hire an attorney. I and this is one of the things that I think is most important, because if you hire someone that has employment stability at the previous firm they were at, they're probably almost always going to have it.

At the next firm, they go two. of all the crap that that the typical person endures in a job. They get criticized, they get they the firm may look like it's having problems. There's political things going on. There's all the stuff going on around the person, and yet there are certain people.[01:17:00]

That it doesn't matter what comes at them. They're just there to work and they get things done and none of the stuff affects them and there's others that don't. Those are the best employees. That's who you would want working for you. You would want, and this is who anybody wants, again, come back to the discussion of the nanny.

If you're interviewing a nanny to work for you, and again, I hate to use this example, but I'm gonna use it just because it's a very common experience for, it seems like a lot of attorneys. But if you are hiring a nanny to work for you to take care of your kids, are you gonna the person that's been at 15 different families for six months each over the past seven years?

Or are you gonna want the person that's been at the last job for seven years and before that was at a job for 15 years and raised a, just think about how you would think about it and because certain people have the same problems wherever they go but certain people handle those problems differently.

The people that can make things work are very well received and there's no reason really to, to ever. Move. Unless in my opinion, unless you're at a five firm and you'll never make partner or you're at a four firm and you'll never make partner there, [01:18:00] or you wanna have less work and more responsibility.

Just always, I always think in terms of this matrix when I'm thinking about moving, because this matrix is the one through five firms really says it all. A lot of times I've seen people move literally from five firms to one firms because they wanna do personal injury or they wanna do and there's nothing wrong with that, but you need to think about it that way.

Cause legal so yeah. Cause employers change people's salaries all the time. I was just reading an article I think in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about a rental car company, or maybe it was in the year, I don't remember what that was paying all of its people that were working and and the, the rental car company, I don't know, the college graduates $25 an hour, then they changed all their salaries to $13 an hour.

And this is talking about thousands and thousands of people. So I believe it is legal. It may depend on the state, I don't know. But people do it all the time. Should you quit? No, you shouldn't quit. You should. If that happens and you are marketable at a firm that pays more money and and you're not happy with that, [01:19:00] then you should definitely there's nothing wrong with changing firms.

It's but and again, I don't know why they would do that, but you may have there, they're typically, if you think about it, there's probably some legal theories where you could sue the employer for doing that. But I wouldn't recommend doing that.

I just would figure that out. And I've, I have seen employers do this, by the way, lots of times I've seen employers change people's salaries after They, they've started work or six months on or a year later. And and and and they, and it's, again, it's up to the firm how they run themselves and that's their, and they obviously may have reasons for doing it that but yes firms can definitely do that.

And and I've seen them do it. Okay. Let me see here. Okay, let me see here. If you, this is a fun question. So if you start a, in a federal clerkship, then a three firm, then a two firm, then a three firms has seen as a red flag firm, No, I think that's fine. Starting a federal clerkship that doesn't count. So that's of like just starting it's almost like just, it's [01:20:00] like a plus, So it's not, doesn't count as a job.

Then you go to a three firm and then a two firm, then a three firm. It depends on the timing of this. So sometimes people, if you did this, if you go to the two firms six months later or a year later, and then you go to the three firm, it just depends on the time. But just think about it how you would, and it depends, it, just think about how you would evaluate it if you were an employer looking at that.

So the idea would be if you move, if you start in a federal clerkship and then which is great and then you go to a three firm, which is great. Then and then you go to a two firm, which is also perfectly fine. And then you move up. It, it depends on kind of the timing of this. So this is all done in three years.

Then you probably wanna stay at the next firm, the three firm, as long as you can. And just remember like when things don't work out, am I responsible? So just try to see like what, why did you go to the two firm after the three firm? What happened? And and just see how you might be responsible for it.

And but yeah this would be a red flag. No, this happened over 10 years. It's not a red flag. It would happened over [01:21:00] five or six years in a big market or something, I don't know. But but you, at some point, firms are gonna believe that you'll probably move wherever you go. So you need to keep that in mind.

Okay. Oh, try to move practice here. Okay. So yeah. So anytime someone anytime someone moves firms and tries to. And tries to move practice errors. I don't know, litigation to litigation is not moving practice errors, but if you move from say, litigation to environmental, I would just give an example like that.

Yeah, there are concerns with that. Typically what people will do and this is just a fun fact. If you are at a four firm saying, doing litigation and you wanna do environmental, then typically what people will do is they'll move from a four firm to a three or a two firm in order to do that type of work.

And sometimes it'll even be in a smaller market because that's the only place it's going to take a risk on them. It's very difficult to move from a four firm doing like litigation to another four firm doing environmental because they're [01:22:00] gonna hire people that are already doing that and they don't need to take a chance on you.

But a smaller firm may, and then you can all, and then what people do of course, is if you're doing litigation here and then you move down to two and do environmental or three environmental, then once you get the experience to typically move back up to a forefront. That's just how people do things.

But what I would recommend is if you are a. Trying to move practice areas. And then you typically wanna move to to a firm. That's, and sometimes you can actually move, if you were at a four firm, you can move to a four firm in a smaller market sometimes, or you can just move to a two or three firm.

And switch practice areas. But switching practice areas, I, I did wanna just bring up a couple of points with switching practice areas and I really don't know how relevant this is, but I'll just bring it up. So one of the things that's interesting to me is I see a lot of every day, I have people.

Like again, and it's a great law school, but Yale Law School, for example, applying to jobs and with, or to work with me and they could be people and a lot of times they're [01:23:00] people that are in New York and other big markets. But but when you look at their backgrounds, like sometimes they're like PhDs in the classics and and these very like verbally heavy.

Backgrounds, meaning that they're writing and, but they're, a lot of times they're in corporate and they'll be corporate attorneys doing. And the same thing goes with a lot of good school. Whether it's Chicago or whatever, Harvard I don't know. It doesn't matter. But and so people will go into these practice areas and if someone goes into corporate and they've got all this writing, I would think, why would someone with all this the, this background and these classics and English and political science, why in the world would they go into corporate?

And what I've concluded, and I don't know how much this matters, but I think a lot of times it just practicing law is practicing law. It's I think that litigation is much different than corporate, but people that go into corporate if they have, and sometimes they'll have had appellate clerkships and go into corporate, I again, but but you don't hear them complaining, saying, Mom, but all my experiences in the classics, they go into [01:24:00] corporate.

I've always personally believed that that people should be in a practice area depending on their skill set. So I've always believed that people that do corporate and transactional practice areas typically have and I'll just write this down, but transactional, which is corporate real estate, things like that.

Our people that are map science. Maybe even science brains and then people brains someone that would like chemistry for example. And then and I would actually even call it hard science brains. And hard science means not life science. It's physics and things like that.

And then and litigation is typically people that like, things like reading and, reading reading, writing, things like that. But you know that, and so anytime and this is what I still believe, but at the same time, if you're in a practice area and you don't like your practice area most of the time that I think that I don't know that switching practice [01:25:00] areas is always going to make you happier or practicing law better or cuz what happens to most people, not all of them, but a lot of, most of the time, and this is what firms experience too, is when someone's trying to switch practice areas, most of the time they just don't like practicing law.

Think about these, all these Yale people and they're all over. You can go to any top law firm's website and New York and you'll see tons of 'em and they majored in Latin and all these different things and that are writing that does it really matter. I don't know. Maybe it does.

I, but at the same time I think that if you wanna switch practice areas many times your issue is with practicing law, not necessarily what you do, what your practice area. So I would just caution you on that. But the only other thing I would say about in terms of your switching practice areas is what the real reason I think the switching practice areas a lot of times is if you have a background in a lot of history doing a certain type of thing.

So sometimes I gave an example earlier today where I talked [01:26:00] about people doing healthcare and or people doing in being, in the medical field before going to law school and then wanting to be in, going to a law firm to do healthcare. And then that, and things like that are often good reasons.

But switching practice areas isn't always your solution. Now, I would say that I do think if you're at a two firm doing insurance defense and and you wanna do higher end litigation moving to commercial litigation isn't really a practice area switch, but moving from insurance defense to IP law would be it's a big switch.

So you just need to think about that to some extent. Is how I would oops, sorry, Gimme here. How I would think about that and yeah, and you talk and oh, and you did answer litigation. To transactional. So yeah, so litigation to transactional. And by the way if you're thinking about moving litigation to transactional right now it's probably not a good time.

And the reason for that is that the market is really whether it's real estate because interest rates are going up, or corporate because deal [01:27:00] flows drastically slowing down, it's probably not a good time to make that switch. One other thing I just did wanna bring up about litigation and transactional is some people are not suited to litigation.

Litigation is a lot of disputes and and arguing and being put down. And so if you're not suited to it, then then you probably should be in another practice area. And there's lots of practice areas where you don't have to fight with other people. And you may not like that and it may be just against your nature.

And that's perfectly fine and may be transactional is your solution or brief writing and appell work or something like that would I'm doing that. Okay. This is a great question here. I like this question. What are the pros and cons of staying in a law firm that has you burned out?

Okay so I've actually watched this firsthand. So I've seen people that are burned. By law firms. And and I've watched people 20 years later I've watched them being burned out, and then what happens to them when they get burned out and and and it's in. Yeah. So there are definitely [01:28:00] some cons.

The cons are pretty extreme. And the pros are also pretty, pretty positive. So you're on the cons the con is unhappiness some substance abuse, bad health, early death, which again, I've seen tons of people die from this. I think about it almost every day. Sickness bad marriages,

Dreading life, that sort of thing. So if you're in a law firm that has you burned out and you don't feel positive from it, then that's not good. So again none of that is good. The pros are I guess you. Feel like you're doing, feel ego on run, feel like a success maybe, I don't know the salary.

Maybe you're getting a good experience. But I'm not even sure that those pros outweigh it. If you feel burned out the thing that I've noticed and this is about is an important point, is the [01:29:00] most successful lawyers, it doesn't matter where they are successful or lawyers it doesn't matter.

They could be they could be at the most prestigious and the biggest firms, but regardless of how demanding the firm is and how, what the firm's reputation is they are empowered by their jobs, powered by their jobs. They look forward to look forward to getting up early on Sundays or whatever to getting to work, doing work.

Et cetera. So they're empowered by it. And and the least successful lawyers are not. So that one of the keys to notice, and again, it could be, it doesn't matter the firm. It could be the, it could be the most demanding and the firm, or the worst reputation for over, but the people that are the most successful for whatever reason.

And I'm not saying that this is normal for everyone, but they're empowered by their jobs. They get strength from it, it makes [01:30:00] 'em feel alive and all that sort of thing. And if you're at a firm where you feel like it's just dragging on you and you're not doing well, and you're not looking forward to it, and and and you're over this hump where you've learned about things and you feel, and you dread everything, then and you don't see it changing, then you need to either get into another profession or another firm or another practice setting.

And many times the practice setting makes all the difference. So just think about it this way. Like I, I, as part of my job, I meet and talk to law professors every day and and. And I talked to them, people from the most prestigious law schools, law professors, them for Harvard or Chicago.

And these law professors would get eaten alive, most of them. And I don't mean that in a negative sense, but they would literally be. Destroyed by a big law firm. The law firm would, most of them, not all of them, because they're socially and politically in a whatever, they just don't have the skill set.

And that's okay. So the practice setting of the lawyer [01:31:00] can make a big deal. So the practice setting can be academic, it can be in house, it can be it can be government I've hired government attorneys before and. That, that, would get eaten alive. And it's just the practice setting you're in can make a big difference.

So it maybe the law firm's not the right practicing for you. The other thing too is some people would much prefer to be in a small law firm or have their own law firm or who knows. But you need to be in the right practice setting nonprofit public interest or, I mean, there's just all sorts of things that you can do.

And and it doesn't, the fact that, just think about one of these Supreme Court justices or most of them in a law firm. Would that work out? I don't know. It's just, for them, the, these are widely considered some of the most successful lawyers in the world.

There's Supreme Court Justice, but does that mean that they would do well in a law firm in terms of all those demands, in terms of making hours? And I don't know. But I would encourage you to think about that. So just because you're unhappy in a practice setting that you're in doesn't mean or, and the law firm that you're in doesn't mean [01:32:00] that you should give up on the practice of law.

It also doesn't mean that, you're in the wrong law firm as well. Okay. What are some signs that maybe time to switch firms? Okay, let me answer that one real quick. Sorry. These are great questions by the way. Thank you everyone for asking them. What are some, So you should generally switch firms when the, a couple things happen.

The firm's not giving you work, your work. You're people are. What else? You are

You you're, you can do better. Meaning you're can do better or you're hungry or better, or want more challenges. Challenges. You feel like you're in the wrong market. Sometimes you may be in the wrong legal market. Legal market. You you don't see don't see potential. Don't see potential for where you're at.

Don't aspire to what success looks like there. What success looks like, meaning being a partner that sort of thing. [01:33:00] Don't look up to the people. You're, don't look up to the people. The people find the clients and work just stateable and can't get over it. All those sorts of things. So those are some signs.

But the main one is if you're not getting work if you feel like that you've reached a plateau with a firm, meaning you've done everything they've asked you, you're doing very good work. You believe that you should be working a more sophisticated work maybe you're in the wrong legal market.

So sometimes I've seen people move to markets where those are just not a good cultural fit, and I'm not giving any specific examples, but you might be very conservative in a very liberal market, or very liberal in a very conservative, I don't know. But those things happen. And there may not be potential at the firm, meaning the firm may be slowly going outta business or getting old.

There's all these firms around LA that it's funny in New York that may have been started like 30 years ago when these people left big firms and the firm never grew beyond seven or eight people, and then all of a sudden they're very [01:34:00] slow and everyone's, and that would probably not be a good place to stay.

So there's all sorts of reasons to switch law firms. I think there's an article that I wrote called The Right and Wrong Reasons to Switch Firms, and I would maybe look at that. I don't know if I covered some of that stuff today, but that could be helpful for you. Okay. Me see here, what are some of the worst reasons?

Good. This looks like one of the last questions. So the worst reasons for moving firms typically have to do with your inability to get along with people. I think I covered this sort of in the get along with others. Then it would be quality of your work being asked, delayed, and then disagreement with with firm policies, et cetera.

So just, so I guess again, I'm, I keep coming back to this example, but I'm gonna give a, imagine interviewing just imagine interviewing someone to be your secretary, interviewing a secretary. So if you're interviewing someone to be your secretary and and you talk to them and [01:35:00] the person, and you ask them about their sec,

I, I dunno what's going on spelling, but if you spot to the secretary and the secretary said hated last boss people and last people in comp, people in the firm before that,

before that too liberal. People from before that too. Conservative,

conservative you would think what's, does this person, what's going on with that? Like, why is this person, and what if they, and then what if they say hyper-critical of work,

possible deadlines, possible to meet deadlines, cri, too much criticism or, too many people are, required to be, I don't know. But you get the idea. And then being asked to leave would be another one. And then a disagreement from policies, required to be there at 8:30 AM didn't like it.

Those sorts of things. So if people are complaining about these sorts of things they're at eight 30. No exceptions. And the idea would be that, that every a future [01:36:00] employer is gonna believe that you're gonna have the same issues as well. So if you hated the last three people that you worked with or had problems with others there if your people were critical of your work at your last job if you're asked to leave or disagree with foreign policies and stuff.

So these are things that would discourage people from hiring you, because most of the time, if you couldn't get along with others in your last job, the I the the i, the, you're probably not gonna have the same problem in the next place. Quality of work, same thing. People were very critical of your work at a couple different places.

Or you were not meeting deadlines or making mistakes, same thing. And if you had problems with the policies what happens when you're new place comes up with policies. So this is just how employers think and how they're likely to think about the next job that you have. And and so these are reasons I will discourage behind you.

Now, if you say something like I'm really trying to get experience in this practice area. And and I feel like I'm at the limit of what terms of the type of clients, because they only represent this type of [01:37:00] client. And I really want, those sorts of things will make law firms really wanna hire you.

Okay, let me just see here.

Okay. I think that's those are pretty much all the questions. I think those are great questions. And and I appreciate everyone's questions. And I don't think, it doesn't look like anyone may have any more. I'm trying, there's a couple questions here that I haven't answered, but it looked like I've answered.

So I don't know that I'm gonna answer them, but I'm just gonna check into consideration. This is an interesting question. I'll answer it, but it's related, odd, the things you've answered, and then we'll finish up unless no one has any other questions. So what are some of the things that law firms take consideration when looking at an applicant's qualifications?

So they look at your the most important thing that law firms look at is your current employer and experience. That's really the top thing that they look at. So they look at your current employer and your experience. So when they look at your current employer, they say, what's the rank of the employer?

What's the meaning one to five? And this is just, this is a system that I [01:38:00] use, but it'd be one to five. Then they say does the is the experience good? Experience good? Does it match what good? Does it match what we have? Does it match our needs? Our needs? So that's the first thing they look at.

And and their current employer. So honestly, like people always think that their law school is important and and it, it, your law school is somewhat important, but the only thing your law school says as a lateral attorney is what your, I guess what your promise is and how hard you worked in the past.

So they will look at your law school your law school is important but it's not that important after you've been practicing for several years. The law school is important. They'll look at that. But after three to four years or even two years, they really don't care that much. Unless it makes them look very good.

Law firm look very good [01:39:00] or very bad, or not so good. What does not so good mean means that is a five firm gonna hire you if you went to a fourth care law school? Probably not. Unless it's a local law school, in which case they would it doesn't matter if you're in New York City and you went to, if you're at a really good firm in New York, say you're at I don't know, Wild Gacho, which is a decent firm, and you went to New York Law School.

That's enough. A local law firm's not a school's not gonna care. After a couple years because the firm you're at has a lot more weight and credibility than than the law school you went to. Honestly the current employer and experience are the most important. So these are really the most important things that they look at are your current employer and experience.

And then honestly, these are businesses. So there's lots of ways can, that they'll the things to look at. But the other question they're looking at is, can we make money from the person, money from the person? And what kind of investment is it's a good investment or not. So some people look like a good investment, other people don't.

And that's really what it comes down to. [01:40:00] And then there's five criteria that I always talk about and I've written a lot of articles about, and this is what I talk to employers about all day when I talk to employers. But it's the five criteria or can you do the job, which is really the most important question.

Will you can you be managed and as will you do the job long term

and do the job long term,

do you want the job,

want the job, and do we like him? So those are really the, these five things. And again, I've written a bunch of articles about this, so you can find those online, but this are really what they're looking for. Being able to do the job is one, one thing. So current employer and experience, but being able to be managed means doing all the things that law firms that meaning you'll do what they want, you will follow instructions.

Committee means are you likely to stick around or are you gonna leave? Do you want, it means are you just interviewing here and not really care about the job? Or do you really want the [01:41:00] job? And then obviously being likable is important too. These are the five things and and and those five things are really the most important things I think that law firms look at.

Okay, here's one other question which I'll answer. Thank you for this extra question. So this question is how to turn around the likely negative tie and make the possible challenges interviews work very well. So the way that people, That's actually a really good question. So there are people that are very good that and hats off to people from New York City cuz and people in New York City have always had been able to interview.

I don't know where they learn it, but they interview very well a lot of attorneys coming outta firms there. And what they do very well to turn around the negative tide is they can go into interviews and be very likable and act and really sell people that they want the job and all these things, but being likable and.

Is extremely important. I've seen a lot of people do this just incredibly well and many times they're from New York. I don't [01:42:00] know what it is, but they can go into almost any interview and get the job. And I've met a lot of people like this throughout my career both men and women.

It's just, and they're equally spaced. There's people, and I think what they're able to do is they're able to prepare very well for interviews. But then they come in and they are extremely likable and likable in a way where they project confidence and and all the negatives in their res and their background are just ignored.

And and I don't know what it is, but there are people like that, that can do it. And and so that's really how you can if you do get in interviews, you can. Just come in and if you have a lot of confidence and are beaming with enthusiasm and then you can really turn around a lot of these negatives.

One of the things I think that, and this is the final thing I'll say that I think makes everything going around is self-confidence and and being confident in yourself and your abilities and your future and really being able to communicate that when you talk [01:43:00] to people.

So if you're able to do that can be extremely helpful. There's lots of courses on self-confidence. There's lots of people medic or do self hypnosis. They take courses in self-confidence, but being able to be self-confident in a way that projects that can help. There's one final thing that I'll end with is there, there's a story about Warren Buffet and and and apparently on his desk the best investment he ever made was he is a Dale Carnegie course I guess he took, which is how to.

We can get along with people. I dunno what the course is called. Best Investment was taking that course and for $5 or $20. And and he said that changed everything for him and his career in life. I took the course years ago. I thought it was a good course too. I but at the same time, I took it, no.

Decades ago, but and I used to have all of our employees take it. It it's a good course. There's also a book I think How to Win Friends and Influence People, I, that may be, I don't know if that's the right one, but how to Win Friends and Influence People. But learning how to get along with others and being [01:44:00] self confidence and is important.

And and it can make really all sorts of things happen that wouldn't happen otherwise. Because ultimately all this stuff is about your ability to connect with people. It's about your ability to be likable because people help people that they like and then they get rid of people and push them away if they don't like them or they feel threatened by them.

And if people feel threatened by you or they don't like you you're really putting yourself in a bad situation. That would be how you overcome all that stuff. Okay. So thank you. I appreciate everyone being on this webinar. It's these great questions today. I really do appreciate all of these questions and I will talk to everyone next week. So thank you very much.